sub frame tool - board buy?

[Bill H.]

George M. said, "Thanks Joe and Bill for the further info on Colorplus. Joe...we did start to have a good discussion on purchasing a sub frame tool only to be curtailed by a disappointing lack of support by board members. You may recall, I lobbied that a few of us kick in and purchase a BMW spec subframe tool."
I'd kick in $30 knowing I will never use it...just to show a little appreciation for all the help I have recieved. I know I got at least 30 bucks worth from Bill R., Winfield & others!

Bill H. in South Florida
1985 635csi-sold
1986 635csi-sold
1992 525iT-sold
1994 530iA-knickel plated V8 rocket, still rocking!

[AllanS]

Who will be the official holder of the BMW Subframe Tool? You'll need to make a map of member locations, and compute who is in the exact center. Then you'll need to take applications from these people to make sure you pick the right one.

[happifella]

I would kick in some $$$. I need to do my bushings soon. :)

Jeff
'91 535im

[George M]

Allan...no fancy map needed. Bill R can hold onto the tool after it settles down...will be busy initially flying around the country. Would be unfair to Bill if the tool kept coming back to him as he would have to ship it out all the time. The guy who uses it last simply sends it off to the next guy who needs it. If that happens to be Bill then fine. The tool will only cost peanuts if we only get a modest group to buy it for the community here. And Bill H...have to say your comments is what I expected from at least 30 board members that use this board regularly. Thanks for your support and my hope is you shouldn't have to contribute if you don't think you will use it as there should be at least 30 people on here that need to use the tool at some point in the future.

[mikemaster]

I'll contribute, I need to do mine sometime.

[RobPatt]

and I too need to replace mine.... me or someone, but they'll be needing done soon! George, sounds like a plan, last person send to the next, somehow manage a sign-up/waiting list.... Maybe next time Ryan's in the Tallahassee area we'll get together and knock out both cars? Ryan? (I'm in Ft. Walton, but always good for a road trip.) -Rob.

[ryan roopnarine]

how far is ft walton from tallahassee? (i don't really have anywhere that i could work on a car there). i might be interested after i see about plugging my heater core back in and goin' down to ft lauderdale to top up the r12, the bushings can't possibly be in the best of condition after 12 years/130k mi.

[AllanS]

Yeah... I was just kidding. I'd dish in 30$ for it, since I know in the back of my head that I'll probably need it in the future.

[Scott H]

There would also have to be a few decent guidelines put in place to respect fellow contributors like:

1) thou shall not ask for, and receive tool six weeks before commencing repairs, thus hording the tool when someone else needs it in a more timely fashion

2) thou shall forward tool to next person on waiting list, and if there is none, tool shall be returned to Bill R

3) first come first serve waiting list

4) if you don't follow these rules, we will come and A) put used front control arm bushings on your car, B) install warped rotors, and C) remove wheel weights so as to be entertained watching you chase down nasty shimmy problems, spending boatloads of cash at the same time.

[Stewart E]

... tell me how much and where to send

[632 Regal]

Picture? Link? what for?

[RobPatt]

yeah, I got 12 years and 126K miles.... was just a thought to save shipping, meet up here or there and do both cars in a day.... but if you've no where in Tall. then the extra 2 hours would make for a long trip...


how far is ft walton from tallahassee? (i don't really have anywhere that i could work on a car there). i might be interested after i see about plugging my heater core back in and goin' down to ft lauderdale to top up the r12, the bushings can't possibly be in the best of condition after 12 years/130k mi.

[Jon K]

i think this is a good idea but i am not sure about it... it might turn out just like the tirerack.com fender liner roller... yeah its a small $ to pay, but you wait and wait and wait and the thing never shows up. Some people dont get to repairs. If someone has an issue doing the repair and needs the tool longer than expected then the board will get upset, even if it is unavoidable.

[George M]

Jon...you raise a good point...will have to stay somewhat to a schedule but I don't think we have any real sticklers on here. Most do their subframe bushings electively versus a job that makes you stranded. Lets hear some proposals from you guys as to what the agreed to terms are. One proposal for the board to consider is each member would have the tool for one week and then send it off to the next guy. We could make a schedule...fill out a calender accounting for transit time UPS Ground which takes about 3 days. If everybody signs up to the schedule...and agrees to the calender then we are off and running. I think we have an outside shot at getting a good group of guys together for the purchase of the tool with all the bells and whistles. If someone screws up and keeps the tool too long, then we track him down and shoot him with one of Winfred's fancy guns...and chop his car up and divy up the parts...lol. Jr...don't screw up...I have my eye on all those throttle bodies :p If a guy looks like he has a conflict he can move to the end of the list.
Other ideas are welcome....and the more participation we get, the cheaper the tool is for all of us.

[Jr ///M5]

The first car in a group would be the guinea pig. Then we should be able to do the swap rather rapidly. Ok, Scott H. are you going to come down here, or should I go to Chicago? Sounds like a reason for a road trip...=)

Some local BMW chapters have tool loan programs. Just because we are all over the nation doesn't mean this won't work.

Who will keep track of the tool? Example, I send it to George, he changes his bushings and then sends it to Martin in the Pacific Northwest, who lets Jeff borrow it while he's over one day. Meanwhile, Scott H. and ed want to team up on theirs, now this begs the question....."Where's the tool?".....I thought you had it, didn't you pick it up? Pick what up? ......we could have it tracked by GPS..=)

Oh yeah, a favor to ask....could we also buy the plates for the E30???

I'm in for $40....

And George..........just don't know how to answer you right now about the throttle bodies.....=)

[Hector]

I agree that there should be an alloted time for each user and that the user is responsible for the timely return of the tool to the next guy down the chain. I think the logistics is petty much a done deal. The challenge will be the record keeping. Who's gonna be disciplined (and perhaps anal) enough to keep track, and proper bookkeeping of the thing. Also, if the tool goes from one hand to the next without the proper transition, I don't think is gonna be a big deal. As George said, there will be about 30 or so of us that will be involved in the DIY job, and there is a good chance that these 30 or so periodically check and make their presence known. So whowever has the tool without going through the proper channels, just drop a couple of lines saying that you have it. Further, considering that there are about 30 or so out of roughly 1500 members, I can't see one, two or 3 of us needing the tool at the same time. The need will be few and far in between. Things will work themselves out.

[JoeS]

Lets put this plan into play....


1) lets have a sticky poll for official contributors.
2) lets establish a Tool Keeper- Has BILLR agreed to this?
3) George Man..... You collect the money and shop. What is your Paypal account? I will be sending $30 shortly.

4) What is our target amount $300 is the price?

5) There are alot of good points and concerns, and we will iron those out as we go.....

6) Maybe we can have ED create new Tool forum, for reservations and requests? and Inquiries - Like who has the tool now?


7) anyone have any better idea?


George M. said, "Thanks Joe and Bill for the further info on Colorplus. Joe...we did start to have a good discussion on purchasing a sub frame tool only to be curtailed by a disappointing lack of support by board members. You may recall, I lobbied that a few of us kick in and purchase a BMW spec subframe tool."
I'd kick in $30 knowing I will never use it...just to show a little appreciation for all the help I have recieved. I know I got at least 30 bucks worth from Bill R., Winfield & others!

Bill H. in South Florida
1985 635csi-sold
1986 635csi-sold
1992 525iT-sold
1994 530iA-knickel plated V8 rocket, still rocking!

[632 Regal]

what is the purpose of it, link? pic? Description?

[Scott H]

I don't mind doing some of the record keeping if necessary. I can throw up a small web form for us to register our participation on. Then after we get a final head count, we can determine how much the contribution will need to be for the whole tool. My guess is we will come in at under $25/ea if this momentum continues.

Let me know if I should make a web form......if I don't get general positive response for this within a day, then I won't bother


The first car in a group would be the guinea pig. Then we should be able to do the swap rather rapidly. Ok, Scott H. are you going to come down here, or should I go to Chicago? Sounds like a reason for a road trip...=)

[Scott H]

specifically designed for use on BMWs to pull the rear subframe bushings.....a common failure and cause of rear end wandering and clunking upon shifting the car's weight forward and backwards.


what is the purpose of it, link? pic? Description?

[Phil from Buffalo]

.. its a great concept. Some guidelines covering possible situations are needed.

[Martin in Bellevue]

...and then sends it to Martin in the Pacific Northwest, who lets Jeff borrow it while he's over one day. Meanwhile, Scott H. and ed want to team up...=)
That just isn't reflected by the history of car maintenance between our e34's. The probable occurrence would include doing the bushings on Jeffro's car; I'd say, at least twice. Oh yeah, he's already done them twice on his car within the last year and a half, no lie. He still mentions the need to redo them, but tries to stay focused on that anemic, over-cammed m30. Once we agree on the preferred technique & tricks, after several attempts on Jubb Jubb's ride, we'd send the tool off for others to use. After everyone else uses the tool, we'd eventually do a bushing swap on my car, with good results.

[Jeff N.]

...Martin just installs them in Jeff's car.

[George M]

a couple more comments....
- Do you guys like the calander idea?....fill out blocks of one week for each participant with 3 days transit time in between to the next member?
- Agree with you Jr...actually Bill R I believe first suggested it...lets get all the attachments for the different Bimmers out there...will then appeal to a larger range of participants and make the tool more worthwhile to Bill and Winfred.
- Bill R do you know the best place to order the tool from?...and what attachments you think would be good? Lastly what the final price of the tool would be including shipping?
- I still don't have a PayPal account. I know...lol. Not a big deal to figure out the money...will only pull the trigger after enough money is collected.
- Ed could you put a sticky up top with the list of contributors?
Ed there may also be a way to include a calender where we can register for the tool....if this is doable let us know. When we sign up, we could register for our block of time. Or we could do it first come first serve....do it by the numbers and then figure out the schedule for use later.
- Lastly, if we get enough guys together, we could likely keep the price down to $20/man.

Further thoughts?

[George M]

another consideration is we may be able to do a group purchase for the bushings...about the same price, independent of BMW model, through BMA. If we get say twenty guys together, we may get a light break on cost if we do a group buy. Probably the best way is to buy your bushings up front so when the tool hits your door, you will be ready to use it. Another thought....lets hear other suggestions...I just put a notice up on the E-32 Roadfly board...will likely get a few guys who will want in...if interested will have them sign up here if Ed gets a sticky up.

[50 fiver]

I have seriously have to do mine, I hope I have finally figured out why my car "walks" all over the place, very bad on uneven roads. I may purchace the thing just so that I can get it done soon. Would anybody like to purchace the thing after I am finished? I am going to price them. Then try and see if I can borrow one from a local shop, to keep from purchacing one-$300? Kind of steep, but if you got to have it, you got to have it, and I believe this fix will seriously help my car.

[George M]

50 fiver...don't buy the tool. The whole purpose is to buy the thing as a group as most of us will hardly ever use it. Simply get on the list and we will get our bushings and you can use what will turn out to be Bill R's tool...hopefully for $20 or so and the price of the bushings.

[50 fiver]

George, I will do it, I just don't want to wait too long. I really needed to do this like last year. 207k m20 and still rolling.

[George M]

Maybe you can be the first then 50 fiver after we get the tool. If Ed puts a calender up, we can each plug in for a time slot.

[50 fiver]

I would be glad to throw in say 50 bucks to get it in a timely manner. Who has the one that was used on Bruno's site? That is where I found out about it and I can't believe it took me that long to figure it out. I have been on here back when everybody was on roadfly and have been reading bruno's site since the same time. I hope that is the answer to my handling probs. From the descriptions, that sounds like what I am experiencing.

[George M]

no need to throw in $50...should be able able to get you high on the list...why not.

[Bill R.]

probably kick in about 25 each, the master kit that has different fittings for other models will probably total over 600... I"ll have to check around and see who has them for the best price, another problem if your going to be shipping it all over , you don't want to ship the entire master kit as that will add to the weight considerably and raise the cost of shipping plus increase the likelyhood that someone will lose a piece of two if they have 20 pieces to account for instead of 4 or 5 for each model.. You almost need someone as a central distributing point so that whatever model the next guy needs it for they can send him the needed attachments. The next item i would think about is that you need to set some rules for tool usage and someone needs to inspect it each time it comes back, most of the aftermarket pullers use a threaded rod type puller with bushings to pull and push the bearing in instead of that 2 jaw type puller like Jeff N. used. If you use an impact wrench on the threaded rod type you'll kill it fairly quickly, It really needs to be lubricated and turned by hand with wrenches and sockets if you want it to live the longest and using it on 30 cars is easily long enough to destroy a threaded rod puller if its used with impacts wrenches and not lubricated on each use.... If you doubt me just go to autozone or checker and look at any of their pullers that have been in use for 3 weeks or so... the typical customer there doesn't care so the pullers get destroyed pretty fast. I think the calendar idea is a good way to do it but I would plan on making sure that each person has it over a weekend that would be the planned time to change them and you would probably have to allow more time in transit from ups than 3 days for regular ground... Patrick at bma is only 500 miles from me and sometimes it took more than 3 days for regular ups to get to me...Also some of the guys that have already expressed interest are in Canada which would make shipping even longer and costs higher, It may help if you guys that live fairly close to each other schedule it together so that 7 or 8 can get done in a fairly short time instead of sending it all over the country based on a first come first serve list... a central distibution point in mid america may be the best way to go for the quickest distribution to everybody , the east and west coast guys would be the longest average time with ground ups.. Also you would need some kind of security system such as do you pay insurance to ups each time to prevent loss?





a couple more comments....
- Do you guys like the calander idea?....fill out blocks of one week for each participant with 3 days transit time in between to the next member?
- Agree with you Jr...actually Bill R I believe first suggested it...lets get all the attachments for the different Bimmers out there...will then appeal to a larger range of participants and make the tool more worthwhile to Bill and Winfred.
- Bill R do you know the best place to order the tool from?...and what attachments you think would be good? Lastly what the final price of the tool would be including shipping?
- I still don't have a PayPal account. I know...lol. Not a big deal to figure out the money...will only pull the trigger after enough money is collected.
- Ed could you put a sticky up top with the list of contributors?
Ed there may also be a way to include a calender where we can register for the tool....if this is doable let us know. When we sign up, we could register for our block of time. Or we could do it first come first serve....do it by the numbers and then figure out the schedule for use later.
- Lastly, if we get enough guys together, we could likely keep the price down to $20/man.

Further thoughts?

[George M]

all good points Bill...thanks for your input. My opinion is...you keep all the attachments at your shop as they will by far be the exception and not the norm for tool use. Could you investigate final tool cost with all the attachments including best place of purchase? In hindsight...two weeks per man is better including shipment which as you say can vary a bit depending on location. If we get 30 guys together that will tie the tool up for just over a year...may go quicker than that if people move along. I believe one hard fast rule is nobody should be allowed to use an impact on this threaded puller for all the good reasons you mentioned....perhaps the only hard fast rule :-) Doesn't take that much manual twisting with a breaker bar or half inch drive rachet. Don't believe having a central tool inspector/keeper is viable..too labor intensive unless someone volunteers for the job.
A calander with two week chunks can be filled out...which as you say will always assure availablity on one of two week ends between each two week period.
Other comments are welcome....

[632 Regal]

specifically designed for use on BMWs to pull the rear subframe bushings.....a common failure and cause of rear end wandering and clunking upon shifting the car's weight forward and backwards.