The dreaded shakes

[KenB]

Ater reading so much about this problem here I was thanking my lucky stars that my car never seemed to have it. I'm talking about the 50-60mph shakes. Arrrgh! Ok here we go...'93 525i, Borbet type H wheels, standard size 205/65-15'' Old tires, Pirelli P6 - no problems, even wear no shakes, just wore out. New tires, Bridgestone Potenza G009. Same size. Went to Tires Plus because they were recommmended by Tire Rack for the Hunter balancing machine. The wheels have been on and off the car 7 times and it is better but not gone yet. I finally gave up but one thing was...there was ONE hubcentric ring missing. What that has to do with balancing I'll never know but the tire guys didn't seem too concerned about it because the lugs are self centering. I even suggested CLEANING the surfaces where the wheel touches the hub. They might have cleaned one or two. Spent the afternoon Saturday and half the day today.

I can find nothing on Tire Racks website about hubcenteric rings. I emailed them, hopefully I'll get an answer before I go nuts. My mechanic says nothing wrong with front end. Had to visit him today to get new belts put on AND because yesterday my brake lining light came on. Seems the sensor wire was rubbing on the wheel (right rear) Tire guy says he can't see HOW but will replace it anyway but it's gonna take another trip because he had to order the part.

All I wanted was some new tires!

Thanks for letting me vent, I feel better now :p

[632 Regal]

throw your thinking away and order some new thrust arms from BMA. shakes will seem like an old habit you kicked.

[playero]

This is exactly what was happening to my old e30. I spend an obscene amount of time and money having the wheels balanced by just about every tire place in my home town and the shaking wouldn't go away. It had the self centering nnts and all, but it still needed the hub centric rings. I never thought that such a small piece will make such a difference, but upon installing them, the shaking was gone. Do not disregard Regal advice, but before you spend more money on the thrust arms, try the rings, it may be just that. Good luck, Dave

[Mobius]

It's absolutely, 100% positively the hubcentric rings. Well, that or an imperfect balance job (really, you have to plead with the guys to "make it absolutely perfect, PLEASE"). Without the rings the wheel can and will move ever so slightly relative to the hub and will make all the balancing in the world worthless. The lugs may center the wheel - but they aren't designed to carry the weight of the car - they would need to be torqued down much harder to accomplish that anyways.

I had some crappy plastic rings on my car that had been pretty beat up after countless wheel removals. I wouldn't have thought much of it, but after basically rebuilding most of my front suspension (which thankfully, doesn't take much) and balancing the wheels many times, it was the last option.

And wouldn't you know it, it's always the damn cheapest part that causes the problem.

Discount Tire gave me the aluminum rings for free - the guy at the counter claimed "they aren't worth ringing up". Reportedly they're part number A670 from TireRack (you'll have to call). They're identical to these (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7925736614&category=42614&sspagename=WDVW) except mine are anodized blue (oooh! ahh!) - and they were $29 cheaper.

[Jon K]

It's absolutely, 100% positively the hubcentric rings. Well, that or an imperfect balance job (really, you have to plead with the guys to "make it absolutely perfect, PLEASE"). Without the rings the wheel can and will move ever so slightly relative to the hub and will make all the balancing in the world worthless. The lugs may center the wheel - but they aren't designed to carry the weight of the car - they would need to be torqued down much harder to accomplish that anyways.

I had some crappy plastic rings on my car that had been pretty beat up after countless wheel removals. I wouldn't have thought much of it, but after basically rebuilding most of my front suspension (which thankfully, doesn't take much) and balancing the wheels many times, it was the last option.

And wouldn't you know it, it's always the damn cheapest part that causes the problem.

Discount Tire gave me the aluminum rings for free - the guy at the counter claimed "they aren't worth ringing up". Reportedly they're part number A670 from TireRack (you'll have to call). They're identical to these (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7925736614&category=42614&sspagename=WDVW) except mine are anodized blue (oooh! ahh!) - and they were $29 cheaper.


No offense, you've only 22 posts... 632 and I have been here for like 2 years... this is not a hubcentric prob... this is a thrust arm problem accentuated by the wheels, but definitely not solely caused by it.

[Scott H]

No offense Jon, but a missing hubcentric ring can be just as much a part of this problem as a worn bushing.......the first thing that should be fixed is the obvious......get the hubcentric ring, and work from there.



No offense, you've only 22 posts... 632 and I have been here for like 2 years... this is not a hubcentric prob... this is a thrust arm problem accentuated by the wheels, but definitely not solely caused by it.

[JonE]

I would try the hubcentric rings, if that doesn't do it then look elsewhere. Last winter when I switched to my snow tires and rims I immediately had the 50-60 mph shimmy. After getting balanced it was still there, hmmm, tried systematically switching back to road wheels until I found the culprit. It was one of the snow tire rims that wasnt' seating properly when bolted onto the hub. Didn't notice it at first but closer inspection showed a gap indicating it wasn't centered perfectly. I then carefully centered the rim and tightened until the slight gap was even, then tightened them really good. The shimmy went away!
Good luck

[callen]

can you take a ring off back wheel and put on front..that will tell you if it's the ring or not. My experience has been that tires have to be perfectly round and balanced...also of course thrust arms will magnify problem if bad. I'm really staring to question quality of front end parts sold by some vendors that are touted as a good source on this board. Think that's why so many on this board have changed them out and still have problems or problem reappears after a short time.
Callen 91 535i 94 530i 89 735il with the shakes

[Jon K]

No offense Jon, but a missing hubcentric ring can be just as much a part of this problem as a worn bushing.......the first thing that should be fixed is the obvious......get the hubcentric ring, and work from there.


None taken, its just that he's said the wheels have been on and off 7 times, surely the shops have switched it around at least once... try taking a hubcentric ring off a rear wheel and put it on the front.. that would clarify if there is front shimmy... i ran my wheels without hubcentrics for like 2 weeks, then i realized i didnt have them, once i put them on, i had the shimmies... i think the shaking of non hubcentric wore the bushings a little bit more or something.

[Drooby]

Can you Descibe in detail these "shakes" - i am thinking maybe you have a bad wheel - i recently put on G009s and am not satisfied with the way they "bounce" - i had the tire guy rotate them and it didnt do the trick , i think its a bad wheel -especially since (in my case)its only the right side of the car .
it maybe bushings but i wont know unless i change them.

[632 Regal]

I agree to try the hubcentric rings first, in fact get a whole set cause the old ones could be worn and not centering the wheels anymore, lets at least eliminate that possibility.

my crap has been vibrating since forever, I have 7 trips to rebalance topped by at least another 10. I have stock baskets and none of these *******s can get the problem to go away. 3 different chains and 1 independant.

Replaced all the tires and the problem remains, they said it because of bent rims, I said open the trunk there is 3 extras to play with, no change. Paid for road force balance which I watched and know that I would have done a better job as I read the entire operating and balancing procedure on the Hunter site. Lazy people suck.

ANyways I have the shakes over 80 mph, replaced the thrust arms with no change, replaced all the struts no change, replaced the tires and rims no change, road force - tiny improvement, front end inspected and tight, all bushings checked and look fine.

Next...

[Mobius]

No offense, you've only 22 posts... 632 and I have been here for like 2 years... this is not a hubcentric prob... this is a thrust arm problem accentuated by the wheels, but definitely not solely caused by it.So you're recommending he jump right into the thrust arms instead of ensuring his wheels are properly centered on his hubs by replacing less than $20 worth of parts? I'm glad you're not my mechanic.

Keep up with that posting thing. No offense, of course.

Of course it can be a thrust arm issue. The bottom line, though, is that the thrust arm shake is an exacerbation of an existing balance problem. E34s are VERY sensitive to proper wheel balancing, and E34s with loose thrust arm bushings are doubly so. If the wheels are balanced, and you know you're missing a hub ring, and you're shaking at 55mph, replacing the rings is only logical; not to mention entirely sensible and prudent.

I still guarantee it's his hub rings - or the lack of them.

[632 Regal]

So you're recommending he jump right into the thrust arms instead of ensuring his wheels are properly centered on his hubs by replacing less than $20 worth of parts? I'm glad you're not my mechanic.

Keep up with that posting thing. No offense, of course.

Of course it can be a thrust arm issue. The bottom line, though, is that the thrust arm shake is an exacerbation of an existing balance problem. E34s are VERY sensitive to proper wheel balancing, and E34s with loose thrust arm bushings are doubly so. If the wheels are balanced, and you know you're missing a hub ring, and you're shaking at 55mph, replacing the rings is only logical; not to mention entirely sensible and prudent.

I still guarantee it's his hub rings - or the lack of them.

[Jason]

Even after i centered the wheel and tighted the crap out of it, it still came loose. also something to note, a bad hubcentric ring can cause the shimmy too. it happened to me. i put the stock wheel on and forgot to take them off and must have squashed it a little, when i put the 17"s back on it shook like mad and didnt go away till i oredered another set from tire rack.

[Mobius]

AND/OR Thrust arms :DPff.. Yeah. Still, the thrust arms are almost a non-issue if you can get perfectly balanced, perfectly round, and perfectly centered wheels. :)

And to adress Jason's post up there ^^ - Yeah, bad, beat up rings are just as much of a problem as no rings. My plastic ones had little tabs that would get caught and fold over - this would apparently actually FORCE the wheel off-center.

So, when you get the new rings - attack the hubs with a wire brush, make sure you get a nice even surface for them to sit on.

[KenB]

I just got off the phone and with Tire Rack and ordered a set of 4 rings. The thing of it is. I DIDN'T have the shakes before with the old Pirelli P6's. I never had the wheels off the car since I bought it so don't know if the ring was missing or they lost it when the took the wheels off. They DID lose my chrome valve stem caps, little cheapies so I didn't even bring it up, but the lack of attention to detail is staring to piss me off. NOBODY wants to do their job without being forced.

I went back again today to get the brake lining sensor replaced that they damaged causing my "BRAKE LININGS" warning light to come on and the manager agreed to try another set of the same or even different tires next week when he gets his shipment in. I previously suggested trying to swap a ring from back to front but was ignored, as well as my suggestion to thoroughly CLEAN the wheel and hub surfaces of any crud buildup. I've spent so much time there since Sat. I feel like I should get a paycheck from them at the end of the week.

I'm starting with the cheap parts first. If all this doesn't do it I will look into the bushings fix, although I did take to to my mechanic yesterday morning and he said all was fine with the front end. I also told the manager at the Tires Plus joint that if he could find any other reason for this problem that I would make sure it is fixed. So I'm starting with the rings, cheap parts first.

Thanks again for all your input. I know this subject has been beat to death but it all helps just the same. Youse guys are the best! :D

[JonE]

Even after i centered the wheel and tighted the crap out of it, it still came loose. also something to note, a bad hubcentric ring can cause the shimmy too. it happened to me. i put the stock wheel on and forgot to take them off and must have squashed it a little, when i put the 17"s back on it shook like mad and didnt go away till i oredered another set from tire rack.

A very good point, I had to fiddle with my centering a couple of times before it was ok, the steel rims for my snow tires might tighten down a bit better than alloys. Normally those steel rims don't call for hubcentric rims, something must've happened to that one rim (they were used when I got them) to enlarge the center hole just a bit. This does illustrates the importance of being centered. Makes me wonder how many other unsolved shimmy issues might be related to "wheel/rim centering".

[632 Regal]

the thrust arms are ALMOST a non-issue

IF you can get perfectly balanced, perfectly round, and perfectly centered wheels. - good luck there.

[632 Regal]

im going out to the barn right now and see if maybe my rims have any slop centering them to the hubs.

another point that just popped into my head is this:

are these *******s balancing my wheels and yours by centering them on the machine from the back or the front??? If on my baskets their doing it from the front (which Im sure i saw them do) their balancing an out of round assembly. RIGHT?? the front isnt machined its a casting where the back isnt.
RIGHT?

I want more infor for when I return AGAIN...I should count the visits I have made over the last year.



A very good point, I had to fiddle with my centering a couple of times before it was ok, the steel rims for my snow tires might tighten down a bit better than alloys. Normally those steel rims don't call for hubcentric rims, something must've happened to that one rim (they were used when I got them) to enlarge the center hole just a bit. This does illustrates the importance of being centered. Makes me wonder how many other unsolved shimmy issues might be related to "wheel/rim centering".

[Mobius]

the thrust arms are ALMOST a non-issue

IF you can get perfectly balanced, perfectly round, and perfectly centered wheels. - good luck there.
Yeah, that's why I put the ":)" after that statement. Heh.

Still. Fix any vibration issues you have before throwing new bushings in. If the vibration is still there, it's just going to shorten the life of the thrust arm bushing.

[winfred]

not to be a dick but at the moment i am running completely unballenced front tires on the 535, i just mounted up two new kumho 712v's for my trip to va friday and i like to ride on the new tires a couple days before ballencing, at 90 i can detect no shimmey at all (i have a tire machine but don't have a ballencer) 225/55/16" on e38 750il rims :D


im going out to the barn right now and see if maybe my rims have any slop centering them to the hubs.

another point that just popped into my head is this:

are these *******s balancing my wheels and yours by centering them on the machine from the back or the front??? If on my baskets their doing it from the front (which Im sure i saw them do) their balancing an out of round assembly. RIGHT?? the front isnt machined its a casting where the back isnt.
RIGHT?

I want more infor for when I return AGAIN...I should count the visits I have made over the last year.

[632 Regal]

not to be a dick but at the moment i am running completely unballenced front tires on the 535, i just mounted up two new kumho 712v's for my trip to va friday and i like to ride on the new tires a couple days before ballencing, at 90 i can detect no shimmey at all (i have a tire machine but don't have a ballencer) 225/55/16" on e38 750il rims :D

[KenB]

Received my plastic hubcentric rings from Tire Rack yesterday and had them put on today. Problem solved, shakes and shimmy gone. Thanks again to everyone here.

KenB

[Mobius]

Received my plastic hubcentric rings from Tire Rack yesterday and had them put on today. Problem solved, shakes and shimmy gone. Thanks again to everyone here.Huh. Fancy that [looks at John K]. :p

Tire Rack sells plastic ones? That's probably where my old ones came from then. Just be careful when remounting the wheels - tire shops have a habit of brute forcing the wheels on and more than a couple times they've snagged and bent up the plastic rings - too much of that and they quickly lose their purpose.

It's always nice to have a big problem turn out to be something really inexpensive like that. :)

[The Melmaan]

[ :(
I removed the front driver side wheel from my E34 5series car the other night trying to fit wheels that I bought from the net (did not know it was from a 3 series), in other words, it was hitting the strut tower and the ball joint. Removed it again and replaced the old tires. When I took the car back on the road, I noticed the shakes at 50 - 60 mph which I did not have before. I'm just about to remove the tires again and I noticed this tread----GREAT I'm not alone. I was suppose to remove and reinstall the tires and see if the shakes will go away. Now I will be checking the Hubcentric Rings. B.T.W., to be able to install the new wheels, I will have to buys a hubcentric wheel adapters (cost a lot of moolah). I have to clear at least minimum 15mm. The adapters that I'm getting are about 23mm. Will update you guys the next story line. I did not know that my Bimmer is so sensitive.
The Melmaan ;)

[632 Regal]

so whats the problem causing my 80 mph vibration?

good call! debates like these are the reason for forums, everyone can voice oppinion. more than one way to skin a cat etc...

Im glad that solved HIS problem.

[andyman32]

Well... glad to read ALL the various things that might be wrong here. On a trip up to D.C. to look at cars, I discovered to my incredible dismay that I have the 50-60 shimmy. BAD. BAD-BAD. Actually, it's perceptible from about 52mph to 64mph.

I did just lower the tire pressure; I usually keep it high (46#) but lowered them to 40 all around for smoother highway cruising. I'm pretty certain I did them very evenly all the way around. I'm paranoid/fanatic about my tires being off even by 1#, esp. from L-R. I check pressure quite often (esp. as the temperature is changing).

Now, when BRAKING from high speeds to slow speeds, there is a HORRIBLE, breath-stopping shudder when dropping through 60-50-40. The wheel jerks back and forth and the whole car shakes. I thought maybe a balance problem had warped the rotors, so I already ordered cross-drilled rotors (good excuse: wanted 'em anyhow) and ceramic pads. But the wobble is gone when braking at lower speeds, so I don't think it's warped rotors.

Now, after 2 or 3 times slowing down from high speeds and experiencing that horrible shudder, the ASC light appears to be on for good. I'll start with the sensor but I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense.

I haven't heard of hubcentric rings before I read this thread, but i'll look for them on BMA when it starts working again - it's been dead since yesterday afternoon. Anyone have any theories about why this shudder would occur when BRAKING through the 50-60 region, or why it would cause the ASC system to malfunction? (Why) could it have anything to do with me lowering my tire pressure?

[silverz06vette]

Stock wheels on my 94 540. Shimmy at 55-60 and also on the way down (same speeds) when braking.

Car has 164k, all arms and suspension was replaced back at 112K. Bilstein sports and H&R lower springs. Not sure what arms I got back then, I think the crappy ones.

I just talked to someone at tirerack about the rings, they said what wheels are they for? I said stock wheels, he said they are not for the stock wheels only aftermarket. :(

Where else can I get the rings?

Would like to try them out before I replace the thrust arm bushings.

The bushings look fine to me, but what the hell do I know? :p

TIA!

[632 Regal]

sounds like thrust arm time again. These things do wear over time and at that mileage since replacement wouldnt surprize me that they are worn. If you had shimmy all over the place I would tell you to look elsewhere but the thrusts mostly shake at 50-60. Make sure they are torqued with the full body weight on them and maybe you can get at least the same life out of a new set.

[andyman32]

Yeah, I had ordered Meyle 540 arms from BMA. When I talked to Yves on the phone, he said, expect the shitty bushings to last for all of a year or two. If you want a semi-permanent solution, go for the Lemforders with 750 bushings.

Good enough for me! I got the arms. Say, winfred, Jeff, do you guys think I should take these to my indy to put on? As you know, I don't have a garage, and my tool set is good, but doesn't include a compressor or torch. I'm worried about ripping apart the suspension if I'm not sure I can complete the job.

[Mobius]

I just talked to someone at tirerack about the rings, they said what wheels are they for? I said stock wheels, he said they are not for the stock wheels only aftermarket. :(

Where else can I get the rings? The rings are ONLY if you have wheels intended for mounting on a newer-than-E34 5-series. The E34 wheel hub is about 1cm smaller than the E39 wheel hub, so a ring is needed to close this gap. If you have stock wheels - this does not apply to you.

Most aftermarket wheels are made with an E39 hub size because it's simple to use a ring and it makes the wheels usable to a much larger market.

But, with the age of your arms - I'd say it's thrust arm time. DO get a good wheel balance done FIRST just to rule out the simple and cheap option.

[632 Regal]

dont need a compressor for this job, need a picklefork and a big hammer or one of them newfangled balljoint pullers. If you can rip it apart you will have no problem getting it back together. we're here.

Good enough for me! I got the arms. Say, winfred, Jeff, do you guys think I should take these to my indy to put on? As you know, I don't have a garage, and my tool set is good, but doesn't include a compressor or torch. I'm worried about ripping apart the suspension if I'm not sure I can complete the job.[/QUOTE]

[winfred]

if you get the arms with the bushings allready pressed in the job can be done in a driveway, a hydrallic press is about the only way to press them in to the arms. a big fuggin hammer can usually get everything apart, sometimes a pickle fork is needed. yes the stock blue bushings suck, the green 750s are ok but i prefer the m5 thrust arm bushings but i don't know if anybody sells them allready installed in arms. a torch is not needed, air tools are not nessary


Yeah, I had ordered Meyle 540 arms from BMA. When I talked to Yves on the phone, he said, expect the shitty bushings to last for all of a year or two. If you want a semi-permanent solution, go for the Lemforders with 750 bushings.

Good enough for me! I got the arms. Say, winfred, Jeff, do you guys think I should take these to my indy to put on? As you know, I don't have a garage, and my tool set is good, but doesn't include a compressor or torch. I'm worried about ripping apart the suspension if I'm not sure I can complete the job.

[andyman32]

Excellent, thanks guys. I did get the fork, and I do indeed have a Big Hammer.

Another ? about the thrust arms: do you really have to raise the car and take off the wheels to do it? I know it'll make access to the steering knucle a bit more open, but I can get at both bolts right now with the car just up on ramps. If I jack it and remove the wheels, will there be any problem fitting the new one in with the springs all the way unloaded?

[silverz06vette]

Took her in for a balance and it did not help.

I just got my upper arms out to replace the thrust arm bushings. I have done them about 55k ago with the cheap arms. One hit and the right side comes right out. About 30 hits with a 3lb hammer and the left side was still holding strong. The nut is looking bad now.

I get a propane torch at HD for $20. I put some heat to the part that is holding the ball joint. I make sure to not melt any rubber boots in the area. All of a sudden the ball joint just pops out on its own. Sweet!!!!

I call Partrick at BMA and he has me two 750 bushings coming by tuesday. Great service from Patrick as usual. They are like $18.50 each.

At work I tried to use an arbor press to get the thrust bushings out, no luck its going to take a hydraulic press to get them out.

I'll be doing our 99 740il in less then a month. Think I'll get that lucky again? I hope so cause the Lemford arms are $130 each for that one.

[winfred]

you will enjoy the rear suspension lower ball joints on that e38/39, who ever designed that cluster **** needs to be in pain, it's like something from a mercedes on how it wears out so fast and is such a bitch to replace


I'll be doing our 99 740il in less then a month. Think I'll get that lucky again? I hope so cause the Lemford arms are $130 each for that one.

[The Melmaan]

Well, I was able to get the rims and unfortunately the offset is 36mm so I have to buy a set of hubcentric wheel adapters from Ebay. Installed the damn thing and I ended up with the shakes. I took the tires to the shop to be balanced and it took the tech a while before he was able to get it right. Now the other problem is I think the tires that come with the rims are not good. The front tires are OK but the rear seems to have some uneven shave that make the car shake at >60. I will have to take it back to the shop this Weekend.

[The Melmaan]

The car still has the dreaded shakes between 45 to 60. I found another set of rims that I will be able to pay the dealer about Feb. of next year. The new wheels has the correct 20mm. I hope that this will fix my dilema.

[BHBMW]

Ok,
Hubcentric rings (when needed) can make a big difference ... especially when you're missing one, that would almost definately cause the shakes. Short of that if nothing is wrong with your front end then i'd say that you're tires still aren't balanced properly or could have a broken belt. That's what happened with my 525i. Tried having it balanced 3 different places and never gone but when I put new tires on all was well again.

Good luck,
BH

[riot]

Actually with the hubcentric rings dont you have to have longer bolts too ? Thats what I thought. I could be wrong. If they are too long though You could bind up the whole hub. Thats expensive to fix, kinda. I dont know the size they need to be. I would like to know. I just placed wheels on my car that are for e34 so I didnt use the rings. But thats not to say in the future I wont want different wheels. I have yet to see the newer m3 wheels on and e34. I think it'd look nice.

[Mobius]

Actually with the hubcentric rings dont you have to have longer bolts too ?No. You're thinking hubcentric spacers. Rings simply adapt the bore of the wheel hub to the hub on the car. The don't move the wheel away from the hub at all.

[632 Regal]

The car still has the dreaded shakes between 45 to 60. I found another set of rims that I will be able to pay the dealer about Feb. of next year. The new wheels has the correct 20mm. I hope that this will fix my dilema..

[rayp]

.
Appreciate the useful info posted, I bought a '94 540i three weeks ago, and during test drive, no shakes. Next morning, the car shakes and vibrates badly at exactly 40mph. Got wheels balanced, seemed to fix. But next day,
shakes came back. Then I noticed that after driving for a while, the shakes diminish and almost disappeared. For the last weeks, it seems that the tires are "out of round" in the morning, and after tires warm up, there's no shakes. Just a theory. Might test it out one weekend by putting car on jackstands overnight. The BMW chassis is good and stiff, and it's probably sensitive to particular harmonic frequencies, like at 40mph.

[632 Regal]

Rayp, the tires are flat spotting which is common with a lot of tires. have to ignore it, as they get a little older/harder they wont do it as much.