Pinging

[jj7]

dear all, i am proud to be a part of this forum, and this is my first posting.
my name is jafar,currently living in malaysia, i imported a 525i 94 from japan, its my second BMW,the first i had was a 520i 91.
the 525i got a long history,but won`t depress with that,at the moment there is the pinging for a year now,lately the car is acting really strange:

1- pinging with gear up-shifting, rpm below 3k
2- hesitation on take off
3- sometimes no response/slow response when gas applied
4- idle most of the time low

more to that,on the modic3 no fault codes,all sensors are within the specs, had the ecu repaired in the US,new catalytic, replaced 2 ignition wires which used to give less than 12v with ignition switch on,cleaned all the ground points as possible, battery flow is optimum,fuel regulator 3bar,new fuel filter, new ignition coils and sparks.cleaned the throttle body.

the car is great and a real bmw when warming up,once the gauge in the middle all those symptoms show up.the only ideas i have is to have the chambers checked for carbon build up and injectors tested and cleaned.
the car is auto...
thanks all

[RobPatt]

injector cleaning (BG44K, couple of cans and tanks...) and running the daylights out of it cross country for a while? I've got a '93 525ia (auto) and it too pings when up shifting below 3K. You'll see many of our cars w/the M50TUs seem to do this... but I don't have the hesitation problem. You've Clogged air filter perhaps? Vaccuum leak on intake somewhere? Good luck, I'd focus on the hesitation as long as the pinging isn't too bad.
cheers, Rob.

dear all, i am proud to be a part of this forum, and this is my first
posting.
my name is jafar,currently living in malaysia, i imported a 525i 94 from japan, its my second BMW,the first i had was a 520i 91.
the 525i got a long history,but won`t depress with that,at the moment there is the pinging for a year now,lately the car is acting really strange:

1- pinging with gear up-shifting, rpm below 3k
2- hesitation on take off
3- sometimes no response/slow response when gas applied
4- idle most of the time low

more to that,on the modic3 no fault codes,all sensors are within the specs, had the ecu repaired in the US,new catalytic, replaced 2 ignition wires which used to give less than 12v with ignition switch on,cleaned all the ground points as possible, battery flow is optimum,fuel regulator 3bar,new fuel filter, new ignition coils and sparks.cleaned the throttle body.

the car is great and a real bmw when warming up,once the gauge in the middle all those symptoms show up.the only ideas i have is to have the chambers checked for carbon build up and injectors tested and cleaned.
the car is auto...
thanks all

[jj7]

injector cleaning (BG44K, couple of cans and tanks...) and running the daylights out of it cross country for a while? I've got a '93 525ia (auto) and it too pings when up shifting below 3K. You'll see many of our cars w/the M50TUs seem to do this... but I don't have the hesitation problem. You've Clogged air filter perhaps? Vaccuum leak on intake somewhere? Good luck, I'd focus on the hesitation as long as the pinging isn't too bad.
cheers, Rob.

Rob,thanx for the reply,i forgot to mention the car got 70k Miles,as for the gas i only use the shell V-power and its 97.The pinging was hardly noticed in the begining,but now it is continious thing even when somtimes on high speed i can hear it,btw i checked the air filter it was clean, as for vaccum i am looking for any articles on that.strangely the bmw work shop claim that the modic can detect any vaccum leaks or at least it can tell if there is any possible leaks,not too sure how true this is..
the mechanic suggested to check on the vanos,he mentioned a kit was available to service it and to adjust the timing, but after that he said that if timing was wrong the modic will find it,so i was left in doubt.
that said, i sometimes wonder if a sensor doesn`t give a fault code,could it faulty? in terms if it is checked manually according the specs???

[DanQ]

the car is great and a real bmw when warming up,once the gauge in the middle all those symptoms show up.the only ideas i have is to have the chambers checked for carbon build up and injectors tested and cleaned.
the car is auto...
thanks all


This statement leads me to believe that there is a temperature sensor not telling the computer that it is at operating temperature. I am not sure where the sensors are or how to manually check them but that is where I would start.

[jj7]

This statement leads me to believe that there is a temperature sensor not telling the computer that it is at operating temperature. I am not sure where the sensors are or how to manually check them but that is where I would start.
Dan,appreciate the input, what is going on here that when the engine warms up lets say after few minutes time, the pinging starts but it doesn`t do that before the gauge is in the middle...i sometimes suspect something mechanical inside the engine,after all components arm up some expand others don`t,this is a wild guess, or the lubrication system got some flows inside the engine that causes the oil not to function properly,what puzzles me is that no sensor is giving any fault code

[ryan roopnarine]

if bill was here, he'd tell you that the likely reason that it doesn't ping when the temp isn't at operating temperature is because the car is running in open loop, ie, the oxygen sensor isn't being used yet. when the car is cold (any oxygen sensor car)....the computer runs things rich until it is sure that things are OK before optimizing fuel consumption. i'd start checking for vacuum leaks and maybe get yer injectors cleaned/run something to start cleaning up carbon. i'm beginning to believe that all m50s of our representative vintage get quite a bit of carbon, was checking in there about 2 weeks ago, there's a hell of a lot of carbon down in my cylinders, and a lot of m50 people report the same 22-2800 rpm ping problem.


Dan,appreciate the input, what is going on here that when the engine warms up lets say after few minutes time, the pinging starts but it doesn`t do that before the gauge is in the middle...i sometimes suspect something mechanical inside the engine,after all components arm up some expand others don`t,this is a wild guess, or the lubrication system got some flows inside the engine that causes the oil not to function properly,what puzzles me is that no sensor is giving any fault code

[RobPatt]

...pull a spark plug and shine a light? I lit it up once while changing plugs and couldn't believe what I saw.. top of the piston looked like the plastic coating in the intake manifold.... blew me away..... by the way, know a 'net reference on how to do a compression &/or leakdown test? thx, Rob.


if bill was here, he'd tell you that the likely reason that it doesn't ping when the temp isn't at operating temperature is because the car is running in open loop, ie, the oxygen sensor isn't being used yet. when the car is cold (any oxygen sensor car)....the computer runs things rich until it is sure that things are OK before optimizing fuel consumption. i'd start checking for vacuum leaks and maybe get yer injectors cleaned/run something to start cleaning up carbon. i'm beginning to believe that all m50s of our representative vintage get quite a bit of carbon, was checking in there about 2 weeks ago, there's a hell of a lot of carbon down in my cylinders, and a lot of m50 people report the same 22-2800 rpm ping problem.

[ryan roopnarine]

here's a pic of me checking for carbon buildup

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/rta96c_cyldeck.jpg

just kidding......i did the flashlight deal when i did the saturn piston soak, that's how i saw it. it was unbelievable how much carbon was flying out of the spark plug holes when i finished the soak step and cranked the starter, seemed like a neverending amount. if i get some free time during christmas and access to an aircompressor i might try it again (until clean to my satisfaction). here's a page with the leakdown instructions. do you have a problem that makes you want to do a leakdown?

http://www.xs11.com/tips/misc/misc3.shtml

[jj7]

here's a pic of me checking for carbon buildup

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/rta96c_cyldeck.jpg

just kidding......i did the flashlight deal when i did the saturn piston soak, that's how i saw it. it was unbelievable how much carbon was flying out of the spark plug holes when i finished the soak step and cranked the starter, seemed like a neverending amount. if i get some free time during christmas and access to an aircompressor i might try it again (until clean to my satisfaction). here's a page with the leakdown instructions. do you have a problem that makes you want to do a leakdown?

http://www.xs11.com/tips/misc/misc3.shtml
Ryan nice comments and straight to the problem, the other day i did the decarbonising through the intake, didn`t do much difference..i still belive that there is carbon deposit in the chambers that after the engine its hot and the spots get hot as well,they start doing their wonders...since i am looking at fuel,electric and air the first two i ruled them out with testing, as for the air issue i want to check every possible air leak.
one important thing was mentioned is that the m50`s got this pinging problem, this forum contains so many methods to overcome it, i am sure if all those methods are gathered as a group, any friend with the same problem can find easily(just a thought), if a list is made ready, starting from the cheap procedure to the most expensive..we put mechanics out of business..
(no offence)...
I tried to find a place which uses a berescope to avoid the cylinder head disassembly, but will try using a strong flash light through the spark plug holes

[jj7]

Ryan nice comments and straight to the problem, the other day i did the decarbonising through the intake, didn`t do much difference..i still belive that there is carbon deposit in the chambers that after the engine its hot and the spots get hot as well,they start doing their wonders...since i am looking at fuel,electric and air the first two i ruled them out with testing, as for the air issue i want to check every possible air leak.
one important thing was mentioned is that the m50`s got this pinging problem, this forum contains so many methods to overcome it, i am sure if all those methods are gathered as a group, any friend with the same problem can find easily(just a thought), if a list is made ready, starting from the cheap procedure to the most expensive..we put mechanics out of business..
(no offence)...
I tried to find a place which uses a berescope to avoid the cylinder head disassembly, but will try using a strong flash light through the spark plug holes

BTW, ryan do you seem to have any article or reference regarding the soaking procedure?? i appreciate that

[RobPatt]

...thanks for the info, and can you ref how you did the effective soak procedure...? Nothing special about the leakdown, I'd just like to know the engine's health deep inside.... thanks. Rob.


here's a pic of me checking for carbon buildup

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/rta96c_cyldeck.jpg

just kidding......i did the flashlight deal when i did the saturn piston soak, that's how i saw it. it was unbelievable how much carbon was flying out of the spark plug holes when i finished the soak step and cranked the starter, seemed like a neverending amount. if i get some free time during christmas and access to an aircompressor i might try it again (until clean to my satisfaction). here's a page with the leakdown instructions. do you have a problem that makes you want to do a leakdown?

http://www.xs11.com/tips/misc/misc3.shtml

[ryan roopnarine]

here's the thing for the saturn piston soak. i'm not quite sure about how this would reduce oil consumption, seeing as logically it would break up any sealing carbon between the piston bottoms and tops. i used chemtool b12 instead of the gm cleaner. anton ch. expressed concern about carbon going past the rings and getting to bearings.....i don't really consider that a dealbreaker in my case as i don't really use oil between changes and the chemical is intended to be blown out with the starter before replacing the sparkplugs. i only left it in for 30 mins, so i'm thinking that if i do it with an initial wait of 4 hours or so, and clean it out with an aircompressor, and repeat until the dirt is gone to my satisfactionthat the results would be better

Engine - Excessive Oil Consumption

BULLETIN NO.: 94-T-59A

ISSUE DATE: February, 2003

CATEGORY TYPE: Engine-16

CATEGORY: General

CORPORATION NO.: 03-06-01-001R

SUBJECT:
Oil Consumption Concern
(Diagnosis/Service Procedure)

Due to the addition of a new internal engine cleaning procedure, this
bulletin has been revised and supersedes bulletin 94-T-59, which
should be
discarded.

MODELS AFFECTED:

All 1991 - 1997 Saturn S-Series Vehicles

CONDITION:

Some customers may comment that the engine is using 1 quart (0.951
liter) or
more of oil every 3000 mi. (4827 km).

CAUSE:

Engine oil consumption greater than 1 quart (0.951 liter) in 3000 mi.
(4827
km) may be caused by stuck/sticking oil control and/or compression
rings.
Engine deposits may build up on and around the oil control ring(s),
compression ring(s) and piston ring land(s) causing the ring(s) to
stick and
become less effective.

CORRECTION:

Perform internal engine cleaning procedure or engine repair procedure
depending on amount of oil consumption.

IF engine uses 1 quart (0.951 liter) of oil in:

1500 mi. - 3000 mi. (2414 km - 4827 km), perform Procedure-1: Internal
Engine Cleaning

1499 mi. (2414 km) or less, perform Procedure-2: Engine Repair

While Saturn still considers oil consumption of 1 quart (0.951 liter)
in
2000 mi. (3218 km) to be an acceptable level, the engine cleaning
procedure
contained in this bulletin may improve oil consumption performance to
an
even more acceptable level.

================================================== ==========================
===========

Bottom line:

If your engine consumes less than one quart every 1,500 miles, you
should
buy a bottle of GM Piston and Ring Cleaner (part nr 12378549) and put
3
ounces of it into each of the four cylinders. Make sure that the
piston is
half way up on all four cylinders (engine at 90 degrees before or
after top
dead center).

Then, blow it out the plug holes by cranking the engine with rags over
it.
Do an oil change and replace the oil with Mobil 1 (yup, the TSB says
to use
Mobil 1) for one 3,000 mile oil change.

It looks like it's official - the oil consumption is due to ring
sticking.

[George Davis]

FWIW, my '94 525i does the low-power pinging too, but it's considerably worse ushing Shell gas. I usually use Chevron, but put in a tankful of Shell premium one day because I got some $2 off coupons, and noticed a significant increase in the pinging. Once that tank was used up, I put Chevron premium back in and the pinging was immediately reduced (but not eliminated). Threw the rest of the Shell coupons away.

[jj7]

FWIW, my '94 525i does the low-power pinging too, but it's considerably worse ushing Shell gas. I usually use Chevron, but put in a tankful of Shell premium one day because I got some $2 off coupons, and noticed a significant increase in the pinging. Once that tank was used up, I put Chevron premium back in and the pinging was immediately reduced (but not eliminated). Threw the rest of the Shell coupons away.

George,throw these coupons in my hands i will need them...i just came up from the parking, after modifying a flash light, and made it in a way to take a closer look at the chambers from close...it never occured to me to use a flash light till bryan mentioned using it to see carbon build up, i am not familiar with mechanics, but from what i saw inside the chamber was definitely carbon build up.just to make sure i inserted a screw driver and very gentley passed it over the carbon,it is a layer and flakes can come out of it.

NOW, that said, i know i got options to eliminate that,the best chemical around here is the 3M, NOT POSSIBLE TO FIND 44k bg...just for advice from cheap to expensive, should i consider:

1- soaking the chambers with the 3M
2- disassemble the cylinder head and have it done by a professional?
3- any other methods u guys out there have tried and worked...

after all the mechanics failed to find this simple and basic cause of pinging problem i vowed to fix it my self, and you guys made it possible

[ryan roopnarine]

....they have means of inserting a grinding tool into the cylinder through the sparkplug hole and grinding it and vacuuming the carbon out. i haven't been able to find a place that actually does it, however. the berryman's here is about 2.25 for 16 oz, and is potent as hell, i'd just use whatever is cheapest and still effective.

[jj7]

....they have means of inserting a grinding tool into the cylinder through the sparkplug hole and grinding it and vacuuming the carbon out. i haven't been able to find a place that actually does it, however. the berryman's here is about 2.25 for 16 oz, and is potent as hell, i'd just use whatever is cheapest and still effective.
ryan, to give you an idea of the ADVANCED mechanics around here i give you two FAMOUS LAST WORDS said by " PRO" mechanics:

1- "ah, it is not pinging" those are small stones trapped in the tires"
2- "no problem,just buy any second-hand ECU, put it in your car and drive it"
"no need for reprograming or anything"....
I would add one one for my satisfaction: " if it pings just ignore it"...

i was thinking about injecting the fluid inside the chambers using a prssure gun, but since this is the first time for me to do such thing, what about the resedue? is it possible to flush it out together with the engine oil or is it risky to cause more damage to the engine? then is it only the piston surface or the whole chamber is infected with carbon? i only managed to see the surface of the piston....do you happen to know the name of the grinding tool mentioned earlier??

[jj7]

ryan, to give you an idea of the ADVANCED mechanics around here i give you two FAMOUS LAST WORDS said by " PRO" mechanics:

1- "ah, it is not pinging" those are small stones trapped in the tires"
2- "no problem,just buy any second-hand ECU, put it in your car and drive it"
"no need for reprograming or anything"....
I would add one one for my satisfaction: " if it pings just ignore it"...

i was thinking about injecting the fluid inside the chambers using a prssure gun, but since this is the first time for me to do such thing, what about the resedue? is it possible to flush it out together with the engine oil or is it risky to cause more damage to the engine? then is it only the piston surface or the whole chamber is infected with carbon? i only managed to see the surface of the piston....do you happen to know the name of the grinding tool mentioned earlier??

Guys, goooood news, today a managed to find a mechanic who does the soaking of chambers with a water based chemical...he started with the intake where the detergent is supplied through using a compressing tool, after that took out the ignition coils and sparks...the moment magic began

the substance is poured into a compressed cylinder then it turns to a foamy substance, then it is injected into the chambers and the reaction starts, and flakes of carbon can be noticed surfacing...when the foam subsides, it is sucked out, and man, you can`t imagine the tar like carbon is noticed in the tube.after that compressed air is applied thoroughly to dry the inner chamber completely...then i took a look inside and i can see the piston surface shining alloy as NEW.....

I was still not too sure about the whole thing, till i tested it....IT REALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE, the car is totally different now...there still exists a very slight ping whilr upshifting,but i can live with that, not as it was before when the sound of pinging was like a bunch of rattle snakes residing in the engine.

It worked for me like no other thing did, i was bit worried that the dissolved substance could harm the engine, but i did spirited driving today and got back the sweet moments back with my ride....thanks to ROB, RYAN AND GEORGE...and to all who gave support

[Warren N.CA]

BTW, ryan do you seem to have any article or reference regarding the soaking procedure?? i appreciate that


My 535i REQUIRES this about every three weeks. Run the car on the freeway, in a lower gear, turning 5500 - 6000 RPM for 2 minutes. Stops the pinging due to carbon buildup in mine, every time.

[RobPatt]

...is this a standard procedure, what is it called? how much did it cost? seems cool though..... please tell us a bit more. thanks, Rob.


Guys, goooood news, today a managed to find a mechanic who does the soaking of chambers with a water based chemical...he started with the intake where the detergent is supplied through using a compressing tool, after that took out the ignition coils and sparks...the moment magic began

the substance is poured into a compressed cylinder then it turns to a foamy substance, then it is injected into the chambers and the reaction starts, and flakes of carbon can be noticed surfacing...when the foam subsides, it is sucked out, and man, you can`t imagine the tar like carbon is noticed in the tube.after that compressed air is applied thoroughly to dry the inner chamber completely...then i took a look inside and i can see the piston surface shining alloy as NEW.....

I was still not too sure about the whole thing, till i tested it....IT REALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE, the car is totally different now...there still exists a very slight ping whilr upshifting,but i can live with that, not as it was before when the sound of pinging was like a bunch of rattle snakes residing in the engine.

It worked for me like no other thing did, i was bit worried that the dissolved substance could harm the engine, but i did spirited driving today and got back the sweet moments back with my ride....thanks to ROB, RYAN AND GEORGE...and to all who gave support

[jj7]

...is this a standard procedure, what is it called? how much did it cost? seems cool though..... please tell us a bit more. thanks, Rob.

Warren, i liked the ITALIAN TUNEUP, i did that but in my way, after the soaking process i visited the highway (but won`t confess in public) about the speed reached ;)
Rob, the mechanic i went to he is Kuala Lumpur as you know,the product he used is called SPEED METAL and is a registred trade mark in Taiwan if i am not mistaken...the product doesn`t tell much about the ingredients or the compound of the substance, or the company...but it is a 500 ml bottle. As for the substance i mentioned before it is poured into a pressurizable (container,cylinder,pump) with a pressure gauge on it.when the substance is pressured it turns to foam, and by using a plastic based tube they insert this tube into the combustion chamber through the spark plug hole,the pressure is relived and the substance goes directly inside the chamber and let soak the carbon for few minutes, once it reacts with the carbon you can see the flakes coming out of the chamber, and is applied to all the chambers.after that another ( container,cylinder,pump) is brought and is used to vaccum out all the liquid poured inside the chamber, if you use a transparent tube you can see the horrors that has been living inside the chamber.Then another pressured air cylinder with a hose is brought to fully dry the chamber and no trace of the substance is left inside.Using a long slim flash light i took a look before and after this procedure, man i could see the clean piston head as new.
This detergent is used while engine is hot to give better results,and they applied some of it on the spark plugs, and they shined almost new. The pinging literally 95% disappeared, and is a slight ping only on gear upshifting.

the mechanic recommended using this procedure each 20k-40k Klm, to maintain a clean engine.Frankly i want to buy this product with the pump i was satisfied with it. the whole process took couple of hours and cost me the equivalent of 85US$,but as i said before it really made a difference...

[632 Regal]

since I dont get any preignition or detonation but that foamy stuff sure sounds cool.

[George Davis]

I read about Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner just now, it's supposed to clean intake valves and combustion chambers, and is pretty simple to use. Do a net search for "Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner".

I can see some problems with it, from getting it distributed to all cylinders to perhaps making a lot of smoke, but it may have possibilities.

[ryan roopnarine]

I read about Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner just now, it's supposed to clean intake valves and combustion chambers, and is pretty simple to use. Do a net search for "Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner".

I can see some problems with it, from getting it distributed to all cylinders to perhaps making a lot of smoke, but it may have possibilities.


i don't think that stuff is any less dangerous or more effective to use than just using water....at least with water you know that you aren't necessarily murder your plugs/cat converter doing it.