Ryan R - master of all statistics oil :)

[DanDombrowski]

Hey Ryan,

I remember awhile ago that you said you might get your oil sent off for analysis. Short question: where would you get this done, and how much would it cost?

Reason: I've been changing the oil on my girlfriend's 98 camry for some time now, and its been pretty good about oil, i.e., doesn't burn too much, comes out pretty consistant after 3000 miles. So she's going to Jacksonville this weekend, and thus I must check her car out before she goes. Oil barely even registers on the dipstick, so I add about 2 quarts to it. Anywho, I start bumming around on the internet looking for instructions on how to replace her power steering belt, and find a HUGE, I mean HUGE discussion on oil sludge buildup on 97-01 Camrys and similar toyota cars that use the same engine, where Toyota admits there is a problem and in some cases will replace the entire engine, but in most cases *tries* to blame the customer for improper care.

Most people on the Camry forums recommend switching to Mobil 1 synthetic to avoid the problem, then again, I think EVERYONE recommends doing that anyway. What amazes me is that the number of 97-01 Camrys on the road is a BIG number, so why haven't I heard of this before? I mean, that is a LOT of cars! I guess on one hand, it can't be THAT widespread, but 1% of the number of Camrys on the road is still whole lotta cars.

So I guess we might want to get the oil analyzed to see what's going on in there. When her father bought the car at around 60,000 miles, it had just had the engine replaced. Coincidence? Mabye. I know that every car has a chance to develop serious wear after 100,000 miles (hers has about 105), but what concerns me is that this sludge problem isnt caused by a lifetime of using some crap oil, its been happening to engines with only 20,000 miles on them, so its a relatively short timespan problem, therefore, I want to address this before I end up having to drive her around town (or even worse, teach her to drive a stick........shudders).

Who am I kidding? Her dad will probably just buy her a new car anyway.

Ok, done rambling. Time to enjoy the rest of my *sick* day

[ryan roopnarine]

it costs about 20 dollars....i haven't turned over enough miles on this first batch to send it away yet 4500/6500 miles, but when it does, its going to

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

i know someone with the 9x-01 lexus rx330 that had to get their engine changed for "some" reason, likely sludge, even though it was changed every 4k or so. they didn't really care, as it was still under warranty, but it was some point under 80k miles. yeah, apparently that sludge concern is big in dem circles. i'm sure you could avoid it by just using a good conventional oil and changing it out every 2500-3k until you knew it was going to be ok. good call on the parents buying her a new car....wonder why females get sooooo much leeway when it comes to driving with the oil light on, et cetera.......

anyway, the 0w30 german castrol has used up about 150 ml of oil in 4500 miles of driving, whereas the mobil would use about 3/4 quart per 6000 miles, and, as you know with mmy current employment, i'm not babying it. if the tests come back good, i'm going to use it year around and ignore the req for 40w-50w oil in my car.

[tim]

Dan, the issue is well known and also affects the mopar 4.7l v8 in much the same way. Engine replacements as low as 20k miles on the dodge dakotas and durangos that use this motor. The fix is to go to a cooler thermostat- 80C from I think 95C which is stock, and run synth. oil. That may work on your camry.

The snafu that causes the problem has to do with emissions testing standards. Basically, they want the block to run as warm as possible, but under certain conditions you can start to burn the (dino) oil before the tstat opens. When it opens, it basically cools the block quickly enough to create this sludge out of the partially degraded oil, which then basically becomes dino glue.

[ryan roopnarine]

apparently this is the notification letter, is her car over 8 years old?

http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/SludgeLetter.pdf

[DanDombrowski]

Ryan,

Thanks for finding that. Its a 98, so no, it is not over 8 years old. Apparently, they tell the dealers to pretty much deny any responsibility from what I've heard, meaning "we'll fix the oil gelling problem....but this isn't oil gelling. Its....uh....Hey! Look over there!"

I have *some* oil change receipts. Apparently, what you need to show regular maintenance is at least one receipt per year (or service tickets). I can vouch for the last year, but before that, its up to her or her dad. She had a bunch of stickers on the door that said when the oil was changed at tire kingdom or similar (with 20W-50, mind you....don't even get me started on that), so she may actually be good on the reciepts. I'll have to check it out when she gets back, going to see Toby Keith in Jacksonville. I gave her a gallon of coolant, 2 bottles of oil, some of my spare tools and a spare set of belts and told her to call me if anything happened. I really feel like an overprotective parent, but she's my BABY :)

I just know Toyota will say "you had the engine replaced by someone other than the dealer? NOT COVERED. There's the door." if anything ends up happening with it. Can't blame them. I guess for now I'm going to convince her parents that they need to pay for me to change the oil with Mobil 1 from now on. I just changed her coolant, so I'm not touching the thermostat now.

Thanks for all your help on this, even though it is one of those wacky wrong wheel drive cars, which, btw, you have to take off the front right wheel to get to the power steering belt.

[ryan roopnarine]

i think that there were some suggestions from the toyota people that there were chemical means of undoing the sludge.......10 gallons of diesel fuel in the crank case along with 30 or 40 quarts of wal mart special oil at .84/qt should git r done :D toby keith, well, he's....an artist..... :p i don't bother giving my mother tools, i'm pretty sure she wouldn't know what to do with them if she needed to actually use them.

[DanDombrowski]

My girlfriend wouldn't know how to hold the tool properly. The oil, coolant and belts are for the AAA guy if he happens to be able to get her on the road right away.

[DanDombrowski]

So for any of you interested, the engine in my GFs car WAS replaced due to this very problem of the oil gellation. The symptoms of this sludging of the oil are blue smoke from the tailpipe and burning oil. Considering that her oil dropped considerably over a 2 week period, I think we're starting to see symptoms of it. As a result, the next time I'm changing the oil, I've got the OK from her parents to use Mobil 1, as it seems that this problem is caused by excessive heat, and the mobil 1 is better at not breaking down in such heat. If it drops alot over the next month, I'll send the stuff in for analysis so I have something to stand on when it comes time to take it to the toyota dealership.

Since cleaning the oil sump and oil pump and valve cover and valves is probably less work than finding a new girlfriend, that's the job I'm going to have to do if this doesn't get better and toyota won't fix it.

[tim]

the tstat is the fix

[JR'Z 525]

My wife's 95 V6 Camry has 140,000 miles on it and has a slight sludge look when you look down the oil fill hole in the valve cover. I had the oil pan off 2 years ago and noticed it on the block walls too. Been using Castrol since day one. I wonder if this problem goes back to other year models too. The heat also interests me cause when I did the timing belt at 100k the cam seals were leaking. They had turned hard and brittle I suspect due to heat. The rear main has had a small leak for 3 years now and I suspect it too is brittle.
Very interesting indeed!
John R.

[Drooby]

i think that there were some suggestions from the toyota people that there were chemical means of undoing the sludge.......10 gallons of diesel fuel in the crank case along with 30 or 40 quarts of wal mart special oil at .84/qt should git r done :D toby keith, well, he's....an artist..... :p i don't bother giving my mother tools, i'm pretty sure she wouldn't know what to do with them if she needed to actually use them.

ok question about oil buildup :
do you recommend the use of " gunk remover" or products if that nature - ( your suppose to put it in the engine and runit for 10 minutes before you change the oil)

does this stuff work or is it another duralube ?

[winfred]

the problem with solvents in the crank case is the possibility of breaking loose harsh particles that can dammage bearings, one of my favorite kill the motor with snake oil things is slick 50 in a 190e mercedes, i've probably sold a half dozen motors due to that crap, and the story's the same, within 50 miles it gets a rod knock where it spun a bearing


ok question about oil buildup :
do you recommend the use of " gunk remover" or products if that nature - ( your suppose to put it in the engine and runit for 10 minutes before you change the oil)

does this stuff work or is it another duralube ?

[DanDombrowski]

No, her Camry is an I4. It affects mostly the I4 and V6 Camry engines, and Siennas and Tacomas with the same engines. Seems to me that the majority of complaints come from people that changed their oil "on time", meaning "every 8,000 miles or when they found a coupon in the paper", and also happen to be in the florida/texas/california heat. I suppose the cause of the heat is the million dollar question, but I do know that Mobil 1 is better performing at higher heats than dino oil, so thats what we're going to use from now on and just pray it doesn't get worse. I don't plan on putting any solvents in the crankcase, if I do any cleaning, it will be pulling the oil pan and the valve cover

[632 Regal]

the bearings and causes rod knocks, camshaft bore galling and lobe wear.

[ryan roopnarine]

i was being facetious about the diesel fuel....all that gunk motor flush is is about 95% diesel with some other crap mixed in with it......

anyway. the 1% of cars afflicted thing apparently is deceiving, dan. i believe that the "problem" was only initially with the v6 motors. by extending it to the I4, they have a much greater sample size and it makes it much easier to say "only 1%".

[JR'Z 525]

Yeah about 4 years ago I let her oil change slide once to a 11,000+ mile interval. We were in the middle of building the house and birthing #2 child etc. After that one time is when I noticed the sludge build up in the filler hole. Before that one time I had been "religious" about changing it around 6,000 miles with Castrol dino. Sounds like could be an accumulative thing especially if you go to 7k+ between changes in warmer climes.
I've been watching the oil level real close since the rear main drips. We've been on several long distance trips in it and I just keep my fingers crossed it doesn't let go at the wrong time. When I get my shop finished I'll take it out of service and drop the drivetrain to fix it. Maybe I'll go to Mobil1 too. Really need to trade it for that rumored BMW minivan LOL!

John R.

[cary]

An oil analysis will not tell you if the engine is sludged. You need to pull the valve cover to check that. I would suggest you go to bobistheoilguy.com and run a search for toyota & sludge, to get more info than you ever wanted or needed to know about the sludge issues with the Toyota 4 cyl motors and 3.0L V-6 motors from the late 90's through early 2000's.


Cary