OT: some problems with my new cz pistol....

[ryan roopnarine]

its a cz-52, complete with 50 year old greases oozing out the more i use it. my first problem is kind of disturbing....

i was pressed into a legitimate situation for the first time ever (where brandishing a firearm might have been appropriate). i'll spare you the details, but just mention that 3 police cars rolled up behind me seconds before i was going to get into trouble (my intuition was good, apparently), sparing me from the putting on the vigilante act. anyway, the dealer that i bought the gun from said that for best lifespan, i should only load 7 cartridges into a clip (instead of the max capacity of 8). the evening i was about to get into trouble, i had the nice, shiny clip loaded with 7 rounds. because of the incident, i went to the range the next day to see if everything was kosher--unfortunately......

the gun would just go (click) and inevitably jam up when i tried to use the shiny mag with 7 in it. i thought something might be wrong with the gun, so i put the well worn magazine into it with 8 rounds. click-BOOM :D

i put the jammed cartridges back into the shiny, to try it out again (cap 7 again). same jamming issue occured. realized that the jam might be magazine related. tried one last time with 8 in the shiny magazine.....boom!
took the mag out, put 8 back in, tried it again......long story short, the shiny one only fires when put in with 8 rounds in it. the dingy one will operate with any number of rounds put into a magazine and inserted in. the shiny one won't. is this likely magazine or gun part related?

2nd problem.....the shiny magazine is the only one of the two that will hold the slide back once the magazine is empty. the dingy one, will kinda engage a detent, and fall back to normal. this sounds like parts rel. to me, what do you gentleman think?

3rd problem. i swept the range around me so that i could check the cases after they were ejected to see if the gun's internals were ok. (in addition to kicking the cases a good 1-2 meters behind me, where they got mixed in with other people's mess :) i found that roughly 1/2 of the cases had split at some point between the cartridge's open edge and the bottleneck (they didn't split continuously along this length, though). the dealer said that the ammunition he sold me was Yugo. military surplus, that it was designed a little hotter than anything civillian was supposed to be, and that it was likely not packed with case reloadability in mind. i bought some czech S and B ammo, i'll check it on thursday to see if it does the same. i can post a pic if need be. any comments?

thanks.

[Sweetwater]

A young cowboy named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wanderlust, who really meant no harm.
He changed his clothes and shined his boots,
And combed his dark hair down.
And his mother cried as he walked out
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

He laughed and kissed his mom and said "Your Billy Joe's a man.
I can shoot as quick and straight as anybody can.
But I wouldn't shoot without a cause, I'd gun nobody down."
But she cried again as he rode away,
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

He sang a song as on he rode, his guns hung at his hips.
He rode into a cattle town, a smile upon his lips.
He stopped and walked into a bar, and laid his money down.
But his mother's words echoed again,
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

He drank his first strong liquor then, to calm his shaking hand.
And tried to tell himself at last he had become a man.
A dusty cowpoke at his side began to laugh him down.
And he heard again his mother's words:
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

Filled with rage then, Billy Joe reached for his gun to draw.
But the stranger drew his gun and fired, before he even saw.
As Billy Joe fell to the floor, the crowd all gathered round.
And wondered at his final words,
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, Don't take your guns to town."

[ryan roopnarine]

A young cowboy named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wanderlust, who really meant no harm.
He changed his clothes and shined his boots,
And combed his dark hair down.
And his mother cried as he walked out
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

He laughed and kissed his mom and said "Your Billy Joe's a man.
I can shoot as quick and straight as anybody can.
But I wouldn't shoot without a cause, I'd gun nobody down."
But she cried again as he rode away,
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

He sang a song as on he rode, his guns hung at his hips.
He rode into a cattle town, a smile upon his lips.
He stopped and walked into a bar, and laid his money down.
But his mother's words echoed again,
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

He drank his first strong liquor then, to calm his shaking hand.
And tried to tell himself at last he had become a man.
A dusty cowpoke at his side began to laugh him down.
And he heard again his mother's words:
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, don't take your guns to town."

Filled with rage then, Billy Joe reached for his gun to draw.
But the stranger drew his gun and fired, before he even saw.
As Billy Joe fell to the floor, the crowd all gathered round.
And wondered at his final words,
"Don't take your guns to town.
Son, leave your guns at home.
Bill, Don't take your guns to town."


i, as much as anyone else, am aware that this isn't for settling impromptu wang measuring contests. like i said, i'm disturbed that my intuition was so right in this case, as they don't send three police cars with 2 in ea. to disperse regular loiterers. my main concern is that my health insurance may or may not cover getting hit over the head with a baseball bat for the contents of my wallet. two other people at my place of employ had to file police reports already, one for being jumped, one for being robbed. i can't wait and hope statistics favor me in this case...that's why i got the most reliable inexpensive pistol that i could (i could have gotten a POS lorcin/bryco saturday night special 9mm or .380 acp for $100), but i got this one knowing that it would fire if i ever needed it to. i really hope to quit some time after the new year, this crap is getting old.

[CrimsonBrian]

I'll keep my opinions on gun control to myself and have little knowledge on your jamming issue, but one question nags: What the hell do you do and where are you doing it where you and your co-workers are under constant threat of being robbed or beaten? You dont work at a 7-11 in Iraq, do you? :)

[ryan roopnarine]

....i'll admit to my transgressions once i quit, which will be shortly.....(even include a photo) :D

for now, i'll say that this crap has, essentially, been isolated incidents. someone that works at my place said that a spate of this magnitude hasn't happened in roughly 5 or 6 years. i think it started when the female got jumped, that just encouraged these people and their compatriots to do it more. if it was just people spitting on my car (as seems to happen more and more to other people), i'd be content ignoring it. if its rocks being thrown, i'd get out with a tire iron and menace around my car (and make sure the gun isn't within my reach). i'm hoping that things calm down (which it seems to be), and that the gun can get mothballed to the holster in the glovebox with a magazine somewhere else in the car. but for the next month, i'm going to be a wee bit defensive when i feel the need to be.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

Ryan,

Here are some basics from some of the other arms that I have worked on that had simular promblems.

Feed problem:

Compare the two mags, carefully paying attention to the feed ears at the top. They should hold the cartridges just high enough to allow the bottom of the slide to push a cartirdge forwards into the camber. If the ears are too tight they may hold it too low and misfeed an empty chamber, too wide and it may allow the cartridge to cant at the mouth of the camber and wind up side ways in the ejection port. "stovepipe"

Check the mouth of the chamber for burrs. If there are some, gently polish round just 1 mm of the mouth to smooth it out.

Slide Stop:

Back to the Mags. Inside the mags are the feed spring and follower.
Check the follower to see that it moves freely and if when empty a part of it enters/passes a small port on the side of the mag where it engages to slide stop. If not it may need a little bending, or the spring may we too short from years of compression from the 8 round load ups to push the slide stop. if so just side the bottom of the mag off...boing!!! catch the spring and give it a stretch, check the follower for free movement and put it back together. Tip: to help avoid the boing and the later frustration of trying to get the spring back in. use a nail or simular item through the holes along the side to hold the spring in place.

Good luck

[CrimsonBrian]

Well, I will look forward to hearing about what it is you are guarding. In the meantime, I will speculate wildly and pretend you work for the CIA.

[Robin-535im]

I think firearms and ammunition fall into that category. If you're robbing a 7-11, use whatever you can get your hands on. If you're protecting your life, well, how much is your life worth? I would think once you decide you need a gun, you'll want to get something very very reliable.

just my two cents...

Robin

[kiNGMak]

buy a glock... get a nice 40 or 45 .... i have a Glock 27.. the baby glock.. reliable....!

[Sweetwater]

....i'll admit to my transgressions once i quit, which will be shortly.....(even include a photo) :D

for now, i'll say that this crap has, essentially, been isolated incidents. someone that works at my place said that a spate of this magnitude hasn't happened in roughly 5 or 6 years. i think it started when the female got jumped, that just encouraged these people and their compatriots to do it more. if it was just people spitting on my car (as seems to happen more and more to other people), i'd be content ignoring it. if its rocks being thrown, i'd get out with a tire iron and menace around my car (and make sure the gun isn't within my reach). i'm hoping that things calm down (which it seems to be), and that the gun can get mothballed to the holster in the glovebox with a magazine somewhere else in the car. but for the next month, i'm going to be a wee bit defensive when i feel the need to be.

Ryan,

I didn't mean to make you any more defensive. We're supposed to live in a civilized world and I'm well aware that it's not. I do like Johnny Cash and was raised on that song amongst others. One of the points I would make is that you need to feel absolutely confident in a firearm. I'm a firm believer in gunsmiths and proper training, just as I believe educated mechanics, surgeons and clergy, none of whom you want to see professionally (as the old joke goes). Get into a certified class for concealed weapon permits. Without the training and certification, many folks do the right thing, but end up on the wrong side of the law. Or even worse, as the song refers to, the wrong side of the gun. I do not envy the situation that puts you at this perceived level of risk.

Ken

[winfred]

some things to remember, you can protect life with deadly force but not proparty and even then if they surender you gotta stop, cops and jury's tend to frown on bullet holes in the back of whatever you just shot for whatever reason no matter how holy (hows that for a pun) and after dispatching said dirty bastard don't reload and resume dispensing justice on the same unless it's still a deadly threat. for my and usually moms personal protection i usually carry one of these
http://members.cox.net/wdixon27/kimbers.JPG
when we need to venture into the demillitarized zone that is north baton rouge, theres a few areas there that i wouldn't venture into with a main battle tank after dark

[winfred]

on the jamming, make sure that absolutly every speck of cosmolene and or old grease it was packed in is gone, then LIGHTLY oil sliding/moving parts a couple drops per slide rail and one drop per piviting part will do, then start looking for bent feed lips on the mag's, if all else fails run a couple boxes of ammo through it to break it in and see how it does then, like most machines it does need a certain amount of break in to perform as designed. split cases, that can be crappy 30-40 year old corosive ammo that's no longer at it's orignal performance level/case strength or a slightly oversized chamber

[winfred]

pizza driver?! chinese food?! had a uncle that drove for dominos in a vw bug, got rolled and left with no clothes or anything else several times


Well, I will look forward to hearing about what it is you are guarding. In the meantime, I will speculate wildly and pretend you work for the CIA.

[cary]

Seriously, is your life worth $300-400???? The first rule of carrying a weapon for self defense is that it must work, every time, without fail, period. What if you had to actually tried use that thing it and didn't work? You would have been beaten twice as badly, if not killed because the perpertraters would have realized that you indended to use any force necessary to protect yourself.

Even if the weapon were functioning properly, I would tell you to dump it. A .380 is not a good defensive weapon. Also, older 380s like yours are not designed to feed hollow points so your odds of the gun incapacitating another are not good. This is the reason I no longer carry my Walther PPK.

I would highly recommend you look at a Sig 239 or a Kahr, both great concealed carry guns when chambered in .40. I do not like Glocks as I have heard to many stories of accidental discharges. If you are looking for something less expensive, take a look at taurus, either a .357 5 shot revolver (you can use 38 special +P rounds to take out some of the pain of a .357) or one of their compact .40's. Taurus guns are not glamourous, but they are very reliable.

If you are not going to replace the CZ with something that functions properly. The fact that it is splitting cases tells me the gun is not mechanically safe to use. If you take it to a repair shop, it will cost another $100-200 to fix. Instead you can step up and spend $400 for a taurus and get a gun that works. If you don't do that, get a couple of good cans of pepper spray and a combat knife. At least those will work when you need them.

Cary

[MBXB]

Ryan,

Go and get a FL Concealed Carry Weapons Permit. The people teaching it usually give the students a discount (of course) on any purchases. My personal choice, there must be a 4 in the caliber. We're in FL!! Gunshow paradise!

JMHO

Ramon

[ryan roopnarine]

Seriously, is your life worth $300-400???? The first rule of carrying a weapon for self defense is that it must work, every time, without fail, period. What if you had to actually tried use that thing it and didn't work? You would have been beaten twice as badly, if not killed because the perpertraters would have realized that you indended to use any force necessary to protect yourself.

Even if the weapon were functioning properly, I would tell you to dump it. A .380 is not a good defensive weapon. Also, older 380s like yours are not designed to feed hollow points so your odds of the gun incapacitating another are not good. This is the reason I no longer carry my Walther PPK.

I would highly recommend you look at a Sig 239 or a Kahr, both great concealed carry guns when chambered in .40. I do not like Glocks as I have heard to many stories of accidental discharges. If you are looking for something less expensive, take a look at taurus, either a .357 5 shot revolver (you can use 38 special +P rounds to take out some of the pain of a .357) or one of their compact .40's. Taurus guns are not glamourous, but they are very reliable.

If you are not going to replace the CZ with something that functions properly. The fact that it is splitting cases tells me the gun is not mechanically safe to use. If you take it to a repair shop, it will cost another $100-200 to fix. Instead you can step up and spend $400 for a taurus and get a gun that works. If you don't do that, get a couple of good cans of pepper spray and a combat knife. At least those will work when you need them.

Cary

i sincerely have no doubt about the reliability of the cz. i bought a unused military piece that has been in storage for 50 years, with magazines that were randomly picked up so that each gun sold would have two magazines. i will buy a new magazine off of makarov.com for it, run a hundred rounds through it haphazardly, and sleep well at night when i reach the conclusion i think i will. i am also going to try to use some consumer grade ammo from czechoslovakia, to see if the same repeats itself. i don't particularly care about the caliber, if i'm going to shoot someone, that point becomes moot to me. all i'm concerned about is that i have a solidly built, damage resistant full frame pistol that needs to have the kinks that any new production pistol might have if something happened to it in shipping. i'll be trying the civ. ammo out against some pumpkins and watermelons and such tomorrow.

PS....developing

apparently some people report that some of the tokarev 7.62x25 has microscopic cracks in it prior to firing, (as well as an increased tendency for this round to split cases. ill be inspecting the yugo box to see if that might
be the case.

[DanQ]

when we need to venture into the demillitarized zone that is north baton rouge, theres a few areas there that i wouldn't venture into with a main battle tank after dark


Heya winfred, I used to live in Baton Rouge. I felt the need carry in more parts of the city than just north baton rouge. Now that I live in the northeast part of the country I never feel the need to carry.

The stories of the pawn shop shootout and the jewelry store robbery should be great detterents to any would-be robbers but those were years ago.

[632 Regal]

Jk

[Brian C.]

You goin' to Growl Ryan?

Brian C.

[winfred]

i know a couple survivers of the imfamous pawn shop shootout, i shoot competition with them and several of the cops that responded to most of that crap. i have a buddy that got held up and shot in the leg at a gas pump in the daylight, i thought i was going need to exersize my buford pusser stick a few times usually at gas stations, for those that have not had the fun, we get *******s that insist on you giving them a ride or buying some shitty item or a smoke... while you are pumping gas, being 6'2" 290# 52" chest generally angry looking with a 4" reddish blond goatee, most of them leave me alone anymore


Heya winfred, I used to live in Baton Rouge. I felt the need carry in more parts of the city than just north baton rouge. Now that I live in the northeast part of the country I never feel the need to carry.

The stories of the pawn shop shootout and the jewelry store robbery should be great detterents to any would-be robbers but those were years ago.

[Sweetwater]

i know a couple survivers of the imfamous pawn shop shootout, i shoot competition with them and several of the cops that responded to most of that crap. i have a buddy that got held up and shot in the leg at a gas pump in the daylight, i thought i was going need to exersize my buford pusser stick a few times usually at gas stations, for those that have not had the fun, we get *******s that insist on you giving them a ride or buying some shitty item or a smoke... while you are pumping gas, being 6'2" 290# 52" chest generally angry looking with a 4" reddish blond goatee, most of them leave me alone anymore


Winnie,

I hope you're not still taking Vioxx.... :p

Seriously, I'm in the ballpark, 6'3" 225 lb, and I find that the dipshits pretty much leave me alone. Course, up here, it's overzelous religious recruiters who are trying to get their hooks in you. It's not hard to dodge the offers of multiple wives at one time if you've even had just one. :D

[ryan roopnarine]

...nah brian, the gators' performance this year made it fashionable not to attend such events.....

[ryan roopnarine]

i just got (as an early un-suprise xmas present) yesterday a 9mm barrel for the cz. while there's usually a possibility of the 9mm barrels not working right in these guns (the tokarev is a decent bit longer case size than 9mm), my gun works perfectly with it using the 100 rd Winchesters from walmart for 10.96. the only problem i seem to have with it is that i can't chamber an extra round using the 9mm (it seems that once the support falls out from the chambered round, it usually jams it in there). oh well, just 8 instead of 8+1 for practice, not really a big deal considering how much more expensive the brand name tokarev is around here (S+B goes for 17.95 for 50 at the local full service gun store). the "elderly gent" who owns the store next to the range wants 29 for the same box of s+b. so that makes 180 approx for the gun/paperwork, plus about 85 for the barrel, which i consider worth the price. to recap my ownership experience with this firearm......i've found that one mag doesn't hold back the slide, which is liveable to me.......the only rounds that don't go off every time in the gun are the russian surplus, which anybody with any type of russian/chineese gun has to accept......and that after the first 40 rounds, the gun was about as broken in as it was going to get (and fully operational with the exception of the russian rounds). its a worthwhile buy if you own one of the ugly ass cz52s, which i doubt applies to anyone here.

[winfred]

the 9mm cci blazer in the black/red letters box goes for right at $4 a box of 50, seen it on sale for $3 a box at sporting goods stores, it's clean and varly hot, 115gr fmj if i remember right, what makes it so cheep is the aluiminum case instead of brass

[pong]

i think u need to clean ur gun!

jams most likely occur from uncleaned guns... the bore and the other parts that move around...

"Type: Single Action
Chamber: 7.62x25mm TT
Weight: 950 g
Length: 209mm
Barrel length: 120 mm
Capacity: 8 rounds


As with the assault rifles (see vz.58), Czechoslovakians want to go by their own road with Warshaw pact. They developed their own military handgun for famous 7.62TT round - a Cz.52. Adopted in 1952, this handgun employed somewhat unique (for handguns) roller-locked, recoil operated design, originally used in German MG-42 mashinegun. During the initial stage of each shot, the barrel and the slide are interlocked by two small rollers, and recoiled back together. After the short recoil, rollers are moved inwards and released the slide. Barrel stops and the slide cycles all the way back to eject empty case and feen new cartridge.

Cz-52 is powerful and accurate, it features three positions manual safety (mounted on the frame): "fire" (lower position), "safe" (middle), "decock" (push up). The one known drawback of the Cz52 is very frangible firing pin, so this gund shouldn't be dry fired.
Today this handgun is retired from Czech army and is sold for private citizens as a military surpulus. "

-got that from a gun site... i think u got something quite old already... if u plan to defend urself, get a gun that u can always rely on...

also if u want less problems... get a HK! havent had a jam for more than 1000 rounds already!

[ryan roopnarine]

this is mostly a question for winfred, i guess. was at the range yesterday 'cause it was ladies day. the two wimmin didn't care for the power and fire belching qualities of the tokarev so i was running the 9mm for them. i decided that i would at least fire off a clip, so i decided to practice on a clip of tok. i loaded 7 surplus toks in the bottom, and put one mag-safe tokarev in the top (ie, 2152 fps, 512 lb*ft). long story short, i fired the magsafe in the 9mm barrel, and didn't realise i did so until the regular tokarevs wouldn't chamber in the gun (they're slightly wider than the magsafe). care to speculate if i did any damage? i've fired about 250 toks thru the gun and about 210 9mm since i got it about a month and a half ago.

ps...for anyone else that wants to contribute, the tok bullets are about 32 caliber, but a hell of a lot faster than any 32 (ie, the tame fiocchi's for it are about 1406 fps, the surplus russians are usually about 1600+).

[Bill R.]

this is mostly a question for winfred, i guess. was at the range yesterday 'cause it was ladies day. the two wimmin didn't care for the power and fire belching qualities of the tokarev so i was running the 9mm for them. i decided that i would at least fire off a clip, so i decided to practice on a clip of tok. i loaded 7 surplus toks in the bottom, and put one mag-safe tokarev in the top (ie, 2152 fps, 512 lb*ft). long story short, i fired the magsafe in the 9mm barrel, and didn't realise i did so until the regular tokarevs wouldn't chamber in the gun (they're slightly wider than the magsafe). care to speculate if i did any damage? i've fired about 250 toks thru the gun and about 210 9mm since i got it about a month and a half ago.

ps...for anyone else that wants to contribute, the tok bullets are about 32 caliber, but a hell of a lot faster than any 32 (ie, the tame fiocchi's for it are about 1406 fps, the surplus russians are usually about 1600+).

[ryan roopnarine]

im not sure what you mean, bill. i felt up the 9mm barrel's outside, still feels nice and straight throughout, i looked on the inside....nice, clean looking grooves throughout their length. just wondering what firing such a high power load through a wider than required barrel would do to it. please explain, if you would.

[winfred]

i doubt you hurt anything, the bad stuff would happen if you could fire a round out of battery (action not fully closed and locked) that can result in a small explosion, most guns have a disconnector to prevent this from happening

[winfred]

a ring to properly headspace a same diameter but shorter round in the chamber (like a 308 in a 30.06), a smaller then the barrel round will not allow the pressures to get to their normal levels due to lack of a good seal and shouldn't of hurt anything, a .32 cal bullet will not engauge the rifling in a .36 cal (9mm) bore and will tumble down range. if done enough it's possible that the gasses passing around the bullet over time could erode the throat of the chamber


im not sure what you mean, bill. i felt up the 9mm barrel's outside, still feels nice and straight throughout, i looked on the inside....nice, clean looking grooves throughout their length. just wondering what firing such a high power load through a wider than required barrel would do to it. please explain, if you would.

[Bill R.]

caused by a misfire or someone firing too large a caliber through the barrel. The round gets stuck partially down the barrel and if you don't realize it then you send the next one right behind it.. when the next bullet hits the stuck round it expands causing the barrel to swell internally, when you get the rounds out and inspect the barrel then there is a visible ring in the barrel where its swelled out slightly. In some cases its only visible when the bore is cleaned and oiled so that its nice and shiny. Its not recomended that you ever shoot a barrel again that has a ring in it. Seen most commonly in rifles but occasionaly in handguns








im not sure what you mean, bill. i felt up the 9mm barrel's outside, still feels nice and straight throughout, i looked on the inside....nice, clean looking grooves throughout their length. just wondering what firing such a high power load through a wider than required barrel would do to it. please explain, if you would.

[winfred]

my dad egged the barrel in my 7" ss super blackhawk .44mag, thought he could shoot out a squib


caused by a misfire or someone firing too large a caliber through the barrel. The round gets stuck partially down the barrel and if you don't realize it then you send the next one right behind it.. when the next bullet hits the stuck round it expands causing the barrel to swell internally, when you get the rounds out and inspect the barrel then there is a visible ring in the barrel where its swelled out slightly. In some cases its only visible when the bore is cleaned and oiled so that its nice and shiny. Its not recomended that you ever shoot a barrel again that has a ring in it. Seen most commonly in rifles but occasionaly in handguns

[ryan roopnarine]

nah, the magsafe made it to the paper target all right. that was the only one that i fired through it, i only realised i had the 9mm in there when the next round (a regular tok) wouldn't chamber in there (the 9 doesn't chamber tokarev right because its opening isn't shaped for it, obviously). it didn't jam or anything.