going to do hot soak tomorrow

[BennyM]

I got some BG products, one is (supposedly) specifically for fuel injection system cleaning (this is not the 44K stuff, though I have some of that too) and is made to be run through the induction system. My only question for this hot soak procedure is: which hose do I pull from my M50 and stick in this can of BG miracle cleaner? I've heard some on an E30 board say to pull the vacuum hose off the FPR and others say to use a hose from the throttle body. Gonna do this tomorrow to put the incessant pinging to an end. Wish me luck.

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007742

BennyM

[liquidtiger720]

good luck! i've been planning on doing this. i already bought sea foam =).
can anybody confirm that this is the vaccum hose from the fpr? if not where?!?!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v457/liquidtiger720/DSC01707Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v457/liquidtiger720/DSC01708Small.jpg


....basically I am unsure just like benny on which hose. but i am pretty sure its the hose with the clamps from the first picture.

[Beemr750]

Tiger, the hose with the clamps on is a fuel pressure line on the injector rail only. be carefull it holds over 30 psi all the time.

[liquidtiger720]

where would i find the line comming out of the fuel pressure regulator?

[BennyM]

I have 3 BG products. One is intake cleaner that you spray into the throttle body, one is the 44k that you put in the gas tank, and the other is injection system cleaner which I let the engine suck up through a vacuum hose till it stalls. I was wondering if you guys recommend a specific order of application for these products. And please help us find the RIGHT HOSE to use. Thanks.

Ben

[liquidtiger720]

and...has anybody even done this on a m50? and is it safe? (this was brought up on another board...)

[BennyM]

Here's my mini-write up.

I found the smaller hose that comes out of the FPR below the big clamped hose that tiger pointed out. The little hose that I pulled off of the FPR runs into the intake manifold. Unfortunately, it is less than a foot long and would not reach into the can. So, I took some extra quarter inch hose that I had left over from replacing the windshield washer lines and replaced the dinky factory hose with this. Now I had 2.5 feet of hose coming off of the manifold. I stuck it in the can and had my buddy start the car. The check engine light came on because, I assume and hope, it sensed the vacuum leak. I pinched the hose with pliers so that it wouldn't suck up the liquid too fast while my friend kept the rpms up so the engine wouldn't bog. The fluid still went into the engine faster than we expected. With just a quarter of the can left, I told my friend to take his foot off the gas while I shoved the hose to the bottom of the can. The engine certainly did stumble, but I think either I didn't shove the hose all the way down in time or my buddy let off the gas too late, and the engine just about died but not completely. So, I yelled to turn it off TURN IT OFF. He did, and we decided to let it rest for an hour.

I figured while it's resting I might as well pull out the make shift vacuum hose and put the original one back in. I reached under the manifold and pulled out the connector that the hose plugs into and suddenly all the fluid started pouring out of this hole on the bottom of the manifold. Oh ****! I fumbled with the connector and finally got it back in, but not before a nice little puddle of injector cleaner had formed on the side of the transmission bell-housing and the garage floor. It wasn't much relative to the size of the can, but I'm still worried that this ruined some part of the process.
After exactly an hour, I connected the other end of the makeshift hose to the FPR and started the car. White smoke came out, but not as billowy as I expected. Perhaps this is because of the 25 degree weather. The smoke that did come out was pretty strong smelling. Thus, I do not recommend breathing it in.

Anyway, the smoke started to dissipate and the idle wasn't quite as bad, but still no where near perfect. I hoped in the car and drove around the block once. the check engine light came back on and my buddy eric suggested that I put the original hose back in. Took the car back to the garage and did just that...with the engine off. The check engine light did not come on after this. I let the engine finish warming up and then I took the car out for a whopper of an italian tune up. About 25 min of unreasonable accelerations and bouts of continuous 3k, 4k, and 5k rpms on the freeway.

Unfortunately, the process did not solve my pinging problem. I still get the occasional ping at idle and a bit of ping/stumble on initial acceleration. The idle actually seems less steady than before and I don't feel that the car is that much swifter. This, however, won't stop me from trying it again. I still have a can of intake cleaner and a can of 44k fuel additive.

Also, the stomp test revealed an error of 1222, which I'm hoping is a fluke from my introducing the vacuum leak. I really hope I didn't blow the 02 sensor because I just replaced that a couple months ago.

Well there you have it. Hope this rambling account of my experiment helped somebody.

Please let me know what you think of all this, guys. Thanks!

BennyM

[liquidtiger720]

doh. now i dont want to do it =,(

you said no improvements of any kind.

i was going to use a straw for the fpr hose.. hehehe.
thanks for being the guinea pig.
edit: you do have a m50 engine right?

i dont know if you have the engine codes or not..so here's a list.

The codes.


Code

1211: DME Control Module
1215: Mass Air Flow
1216: Throttle potentiometer
1218: Output Stage Group 1
1219: Output Stage Group 2
1221: O2 Sensor 1
1212: O2 Sensor 2
1222: O2 lean/rich control stop
1213: O2 sensor 2 lean/rich c/s
1223: Coolant Temp Sensor
1224: Air Temp Sensor
1225: Knock sensor 1
1226: Knock Sensor 2
1227: Knock Sensor 3
1228: Knock Sensor 4
1231: Battery Voltage Monitor
1232: Idle Position Signal
1233: Wide Open Throttle Signal
1234: Speedometer A signal
1237: A/C cut-off
1242: A/C signal
1243: Crankshaft Position Sensor
1244: Camshaft Position Sensor
1245: Elect. Tranny control intervention
1247: Ignition Secondary Monitor
1251: Fuel injectors 1,3,5
1252: Fuel injectors 2,4,6
1251: Fuel Injector 1
1252: Fuel Injector 2
1253: Fuel Injector 3
1254: Fuel Injector 4
1255: Fuel Injector 5
1256: Fuel Injector 6
1257: Fuel Injector 7
1258: Fuel Injector 8
1261: Fuel Pump
1262: Idle Speed Control
1263: Evap. System
1264: O2 Sensor Heater
1265: Check Engine Lamp
1266: VANOS
1267: Air Pump
1271: Ignition Coil 1

1272: Ignition Coil 2
1273: Ignition Coil 3
1274: Ignition Coil 4
1275: Ignition Coil 5
1276: Ignition Coil 6
1277: Ignition Coil 7
1278: Ignition Coil 8
1281: DME Memory
1282: Fault Code Memory
1283: Fuel Injector Output Stage
1286: Knock Control test pulse
1000: End of faults
1444: No faults

[ryan roopnarine]

i'd suggest that if you don't have an extreme ping, that you not do this again, or do it with something non-fouling, like water....

the risks of doing this with a cleaner.....
--hard on cat (it IS a chemical, after all)
--risk of spark plug foul
--hard on o2 sensor

the risks of doing it with water are the same, except substitute giant @ss pieces of carbon doing the damage instead of chemical. some of that has to end up in the cat, and on the o2 sensor. bill r said its also hard on ring lands. someone else told me that any time you do this, the piston tops begin to crater (if only a little). i have a used oil sample under my bathroom sink that i haven't gotten a chance to send away for analysis yet, i did 3 decarbs on this oil, so we'll see if any engine type metals or ring type metals ended up in the oil solution.

what i'd do if i were you, is to take out a plug and use a flashlight to evaluate how much carbon is down there. the m50 is waaaayyyy more sensitive to buildup than is the m20s they mention on that board, (namely cause of the 10 or 10.5:1 compression) so its going to take more work, over time to solve your problem. i found that there's a limit to how much induction will clean. what i did find effective was doing the saturn piston soak (because most m50s have carbon everywhere, removing some, even if its not on the valves, helps). what i also found to clear crap out post haste is using berryman's b12 additive in 4 or 8x recommended solution in gas. if you think that the insides of your fuel lines, et cetera, are congested with crap, then don't do this. i wait until the fuel light comes on, put in one or two WHOLE cans of the stuff into the gas, put about 1/2 gallon of gas on top of it to mix it up, and eye-tallian tuneup to my comfort threshold of running out of gas. this suprisingly didn't do anything for city driving, but my highway driving mileage seems to have gone up dramatically after doing this, so i might do this again before my next oil change. if i were you, i'd definitely pull the o2 sensor out of the exhaust before doing any cleaning procedure, you'd be suprised how quickly it fouls it when the cleaning method is really effective.

[BennyM]

I'm sure it's not the gentlest on the engine and exhaust, but I did have a really terrible ping. It wasn't quite so bad driving around today...and each time I drive the car, it gets a little smoother (or it's just in my head). And, yes, I have checked for vacuum leaks and replaced hoses. The plugs, as of 2 weeks ago still looked new. And while I was checking the plugs, I did peak in to see the layer of carbon resting on top of my pistons. The car does have a lot of mileage and does need de-carbing. Trust me, I'm not doing this for fun. I wish I had known to take out the O2 sensor, and I certainly will in the future.

Odly, others have recommended the chemical treatment instead of water. Maybe I should do both? I also cleaned the throtle body with intake cleaner last night and that seemed to help a bit too.

I might try one more decarb session in a week or so. Until then, I'm going to run a tank of gas/BG 44K mix and see what else that clears up. An oil change will come shortly after, of course.

Please elaborate on the saturn piston soak. I assume this means taking the pistons out of the engine (dread).

Also, you are welcome, tiger, for being the guinea pig. I just couldn't wait any longer, but I hope you have more success than I have so far.

BennyM


i'd suggest that if you don't have an extreme ping, that you not do this again, or do it with something non-fouling, like water....

the risks of doing this with a cleaner.....
--hard on cat (it IS a chemical, after all)
--risk of spark plug foul
--hard on o2 sensor

the risks of doing it with water are the same, except substitute giant @ss pieces of carbon doing the damage instead of chemical. some of that has to end up in the cat, and on the o2 sensor. bill r said its also hard on ring lands. someone else told me that any time you do this, the piston tops begin to crater (if only a little). i have a used oil sample under my bathroom sink that i haven't gotten a chance to send away for analysis yet, i did 3 decarbs on this oil, so we'll see if any engine type metals or ring type metals ended up in the oil solution.

what i'd do if i were you, is to take out a plug and use a flashlight to evaluate how much carbon is down there. the m50 is waaaayyyy more sensitive to buildup than is the m20s they mention on that board, (namely cause of the 10 or 10.5:1 compression) so its going to take more work, over time to solve your problem. i found that there's a limit to how much induction will clean. what i did find effective was doing the saturn piston soak (because most m50s have carbon everywhere, removing some, even if its not on the valves, helps). what i also found to clear crap out post haste is using berryman's b12 additive in 4 or 8x recommended solution in gas. if you think that the insides of your fuel lines, et cetera, are congested with crap, then don't do this. i wait until the fuel light comes on, put in one or two WHOLE cans of the stuff into the gas, put about 1/2 gallon of gas on top of it to mix it up, and eye-tallian tuneup to my comfort threshold of running out of gas. this suprisingly didn't do anything for city driving, but my highway driving mileage seems to have gone up dramatically after doing this, so i might do this again before my next oil change. if i were you, i'd definitely pull the o2 sensor out of the exhaust before doing any cleaning procedure, you'd be suprised how quickly it fouls it when the cleaning method is really effective.

[ryan roopnarine]

what was their rationale for the cleaner being better than the water? the "smokescreen" these people talk about is nothing more than the cleaner burning, NOT necessarily the carbon being burned off. if the exhaust doesn't have a smell of burning carbon when you are up close, no cleaning is being accomplished.

the saturn piston soak is simple.....did it a while ago
the car will be difficult to start afterward, the starter motor will likely have some of its life reduced. you pour about 2 oz of cleaner in through the spark plug holes. let it sit for several hours, then blow it out using the starter motor. when i did this, lots of little bits of "wet fish food" looking stuff (carbon) came flying out of the holes when i was blowing it out. replace spark plugs, and TRY to start your car.

[babalouies]

Just so happens I was about on to doing this myself, and so I arrive as guinea pig #2. I had the added fun of the engine dieseling instead of stalling. It's currently soaking, I'll give a report on the results in a couple hours.

[babalouies]

Results:
Despite the seeminly faulty attempt, the pinging seems to have lessened significantly. Can't say the performance of the car changed dramatically, but I did notice that when pulling into my neighborhood I exited my usual 1-2-3 shift routine at 35mph instead of 30mph (might have just been a side effect of listening to the Propellerheads).

Might be worth noting that after initially starting up the check engine light was on and acceleration was rough; after a couple of runs through the gears and a few billowing clouds of smoke things smoothed out nicely. Got a nice chuckle when pulling up to a light and drawing some odd stares towards my engulfed-in-smoke bimmer. Also, I used around 20oz of Techron for this.

I'll notify if my engine suddenly kicks the bucket any time soon.

[liquidtiger720]

alrighty. well, it seems like this is more trouble then it is worth it. seeing as my car does not have any problems, i think i should just leave it alone. i was only planning to do this as a cleaning, and to help it run a little healthier. it seems as if the potential costs outweigh the gain.

can you guys describe what your pinging sounds like? i have never actually heard an engine ping. heh.

[BennyM]

If I were you, I'd just stick to an occasional addition of the techron or 44K in the fuel tank. I'd also like to reiterate that my check engine light has not come back on.


alrighty. well, it seems like this is more trouble then it is worth it. seeing as my car does not have any problems, i think i should just leave it alone. i was only planning to do this as a cleaning, and to help it run a little healthier. it seems as if the potential costs outweigh the gain.

can you guys describe what your pinging sounds like? i have never actually heard an engine ping. heh.

[liquidtiger720]

is that the same thing as say...red line fuel inj. cleaner? or does it have a different purpose?

[Bill R.]

think the potential harm far outweighs any benefits. By flooding the engine with a solvent you wash off all the oil in the cylinder walls and rings and on the valve stems, so that when you first start it up its dry dry, no oil film at all to lube it for the first few minutes. That plus the fact that by sucking it in through one of the vacum lines means that the cylinders closest to the vacum port will get all the solvent and those furthest away will get none or very little , I feel that you'll get a much better and more even cleaning job by adding combustion chamber cleaner to the gas tank and doing it slowly over a couple of tanks of gas. There's not that much carbon in these engines like there used to be 30 years ago, If you're having pinging and detonating problems I can almost guarantee that its not caused by carbon.
BG and Techron both sell fuel injector cleaner that cleans combustion chamber deposits ie. Carbon. I would only use these







is that the same thing as say...red line fuel inj. cleaner? or does it have a different purpose?