Injector Cleaner, Carbon remover?

[rot535i]

I just replaced an engine in a car I recently purchased and want to prevent what I found in the engine I had to replace. The intake and valve areas were full of soot. see photo. I'm looking for recommendations. Injector cleaners? Octane boosters? What works?
Mike

[ryan roopnarine]

i might get flamed for sayin' this, buuuuttt.....i find that the only FI injector that does anything noticeable in one tank is bg44k, which is around 15 per can. this isn't worth the cost for me. i find that techron, redline (&c, &c.) arent worth the money if they are used in the manner prescribed in the bottle. my personal cleanliness routine? get the cheapest 3k mile fuel injector cleaner (not the "use every other tank stuff) from walmart, for about 1.50 each. buy three of them. toss them in just before the reserve light comes on. run it to the brink of running out of fuel, doing italian tuneups the way through. repeat several times, remembering that you will have to change your oil soon after. i personally don't bother using techron anymore unless i can afford to buy two or three bottles to dump in at the same time. my mother, who notices nothing automotive, noted that she was getting a lot better gas mileage after i put two bottles of techron in and flogged it for 40 miles or so. i wouldn't do this in anything with a suspect/leaky fuel system though, would probably eat the rubber out. i drive about 900 miles per week in the e34, i do this every other tank when i get close to an oil change. i've spent too much money on these solutions in other cars not to come to the conclusion i've arrived at, its quantity, not the quality of the cleaner you put in that gets the actual cleaning done.

[632 Regal]

looks like its burning quite a bit of oil.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I avoid the discount gas places and stick to one big name Company, Even though I know that in my area the all gas comes from the same two refineries. It comes down to the additives and detergents used by the big name gas companies that are often not in the discount stuff.

I also throw in a bottle of whatever injector cleaner is on sale a few times a month to help break down any varnish or gum.

[RobPatt]

...used a can of seafoam in the tank and another drank via the intake, rest 5-10 finish the last half.... flog it for 40 or so.... noticable improvement. even going up a hill to work, at 20mph or so I use to get pinging...now I don't... all the places I used to get pinging I don't anymore... I always run chevron 93 and have the EAT chip.... I think I'll do the seafoam hotsoak on the remnants of a tank of gas before oil changes. M50pingmaster. -Rob.



i might get flamed for sayin' this, buuuuttt.....i find that the only FI injector that does anything noticeable in one tank is bg44k, which is around 15 per can. this isn't worth the cost for me. i find that techron, redline (&c, &c.) arent worth the money if they are used in the manner prescribed in the bottle. my personal cleanliness routine? get the cheapest 3k mile fuel injector cleaner (not the "use every other tank stuff) from walmart, for about 1.50 each. buy three of them. toss them in just before the reserve light comes on. run it to the brink of running out of fuel, doing italian tuneups the way through. repeat several times, remembering that you will have to change your oil soon after. i personally don't bother using techron anymore unless i can afford to buy two or three bottles to dump in at the same time. my mother, who notices nothing automotive, noted that she was getting a lot better gas mileage after i put two bottles of techron in and flogged it for 40 miles or so. i wouldn't do this in anything with a suspect/leaky fuel system though, would probably eat the rubber out. i drive about 900 miles per week in the e34, i do this every other tank when i get close to an oil change. i've spent too much money on these solutions in other cars not to come to the conclusion i've arrived at, its quantity, not the quality of the cleaner you put in that gets the actual cleaning done.

[John B.]

My 535i has about the same mileage as yours, has the EAT chip & I run 91 octane with no pinging problems. Before the EAT chip I ran 89 & it was happy. Every few months I'll run a can of Techron through the tank but if your car is running good & you aren't lugging it all the time you shouldn't have problems. Your old engine had lots of problems as I recall from your first post that would account for the mess you found.

[liquidtiger720]

Im using that techron fuel system cleaner. It seems to be helping it run a little smoother. I'm on my second bottle. Each bottle treats like 20 gallons, and i've only filled it up to about 10 gallons. Maybe I should do like you said and pour it in when the gas light lights up.


As per the seafoam hotsoak method through the intake- did you have any o2 sensor problems or even cat. problems?

[shogun]

When looking at the pic of the intake I believe there was something wrong. Do not know about that engine so much but on the M60/62/70 engines that is usually a prob with a broken diaphragm or valve in the crank case ventilation. Easy to detect by high oil consumption, black smoke from the exhaust, and suction when opening the engine oil filler cap.
The whole intake system can then look like the above picture.
If all is working properly, such pic would look different.

[rot535i]

My 535i has about the same mileage as yours, has the EAT chip & I run 91 octane with no pinging problems. Before the EAT chip I ran 89 & it was happy. Every few months I'll run a can of Techron through the tank but if your car is running good & you aren't lugging it all the time you shouldn't have problems. Your old engine had lots of problems as I recall from your first post that would account for the mess you found.

Iv'e put 500mi on the recently installed engine and have been using 93 octane thinking I'd like to clean it out before I try using less octane. I'ts good to here it should be fine on 89 octane. This engine is running much better and I'm actually enjoying the car now. There is just that image of the old engine still in my mind.

[rot535i]

When looking at the pic of the intake I believe there was something wrong. Do not know about that engine so much but on the M60/62/70 engines that is usually a prob with a broken diaphragm or valve in the crank case ventilation. Easy to detect by high oil consumption, black smoke from the exhaust, and suction when opening the engine oil filler cap.
The whole intake system can then look like the above picture.
If all is working properly, such pic would look different.

This was the old engine I pulled for a coolant leak. As i took it apart it just got uglier.

[JonE]

If your M30 engine is not "chipped", it should run fine on 87 octane.

[Beemr750]

When I changed my head gasket on my 535i with !44000 on it last year ,I did not notice any extra soot in the intake system.And I run it 99% on 87.But once so often I will add a bottle of Techron especially when the idle seems rough in the summer with A/C on.Also no mods on this car but so far so good,can't see me buying any other car-if ever. LOL

[535ise]

The black stuf on the in side of the manifold is down to the oil fumes being drawn through from the crank case breather.I don't think it harms the performance of the engine.

The following picture shows clean metal from when the ports were matched to the head ports.The work was done about 5000 miles a go and the reason the ports have not started to black up is because i use an oil catch tank for the oil fumes.

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/6506/hpim05860yy.jpg

[RobPatt]

...though I'm still on the first tank of gas and fresh Mobil 1 0W-40 .... performance and smoothness are up and no nastygrams from the check control..... I know I read about the hotsoak here on the board, and read of someone using Seafoam on a bimmer board somewhere... most likely here. Interesting thing was the seafoam actually indicated on the bottle that it could be taken via the intake manifold. I'm not hardcore sold on the stuff, Techron may have worked just as well, and usually I run some techron in the tank on the last tank before an oil change.... -Rob.


Im using that techron fuel system cleaner. It seems to be helping it run a little smoother. I'm on my second bottle. Each bottle treats like 20 gallons, and i've only filled it up to about 10 gallons. Maybe I should do like you said and pour it in when the gas light lights up.


As per the seafoam hotsoak method through the intake- did you have any o2 sensor problems or even cat. problems?

[liquidtiger720]

...though I'm still on the first tank of gas and fresh Mobil 1 0W-40 .... performance and smoothness are up and no nastygrams from the check control..... I know I read about the hotsoak here on the board, and read of someone using Seafoam on a bimmer board somewhere... most likely here. Interesting thing was the seafoam actually indicated on the bottle that it could be taken via the intake manifold. I'm not hardcore sold on the stuff, Techron may have worked just as well, and usually I run some techron in the tank on the last tank before an oil change.... -Rob.



Cool, I was planning to put the whole can thru the intake and let it sit for a couple hours then do an italian tune up, but i was worried of causing harm to the o2 sensor and the catalitic converter. Maybe I should think about it again.

[RobPatt]

on about 1/4 tank of chevron 93 plus a can of seafoam... warmed up engine, sucked half can of seafoam, soaked about 10 min, sucked remaining half of can.... drove like bat out of hell, and when couldn't go fast, drove in second gear..... much smoother now, about 200 miles later, no probs, but no guarentees either.

Cool, I was planning to put the whole can thru the intake and let it sit for a couple hours then do an italian tune up, but i was worried of causing harm to the o2 sensor and the catalitic converter. Maybe I should think about it again.

[liquidtiger720]

This is the method I was introduced with but replace Techron with Seafoam.

Basically, you go to the store and buy a 20oz. bottle of Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner. Then you go drive you car until the engine is plenty hot.
Keep the car running and disconnect the hose that goes from the fuel pressure regulator to the exhaust manifold. (this hose is easy to locate. It is the only vaccuum line that is connected on the top of the intake manifold and runs a short distance to the FPR which is a small black piece located dead smack in the middle of the engine bay twords the front of the engine. The other side of the FPR has a fuel line attached to it via a clamp.)
This hose needs to be disconnected from the FPR and left connected to the intake manifold. When you disconnect it if you stick your finger on the tip of the hose you will feel your finger get slightly suctioned onto the hose.... This way you know you have done it right.
Now make sure you have an empty bottle of gatorade or something that is clear so you can see through it and is a 20oz. bottle. Pour the bottle of techron into that clear bottle and then stick the end of the hose into the bottle and let it start sucking out the cleaner into the manifold. The car will attempt to stall so it is best to have someone sitting in the drivers seat presing the gas to hold the rpms around 2-3k as to ensure it not stalling. Once the bottle is down to about 1/4 left tell that person to take their foot off the gas and you just keep the hose at the bottom of the bottle. Let all of the cleaner get sucked out and then the car should stall. If it doesnt stall make it stall immediately.
Let the car sit for at least one hour and then start it up again. It may take a few cranks and it will idle like **** at first, but you will see tons of white smoke coming out the tailpipe. Once that smoke dies down a bit take the car for about a 20 minute drive in all different gears and varying rpms to ensure you have removed all the smoke.


* this guy is referring to a e30 though.

[rot535i]

This is the method I was introduced with but replace Techron with Seafoam.

Basically, you go to the store and buy a 20oz. bottle of Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner. Then you go drive you car until the engine is plenty hot.
Keep the car running and disconnect the hose that goes from the fuel pressure regulator to the exhaust manifold. (this hose is easy to locate. It is the only vaccuum line that is connected on the top of the intake manifold and runs a short distance to the FPR which is a small black piece located dead smack in the middle of the engine bay twords the front of the engine. The other side of the FPR has a fuel line attached to it via a clamp.)
This hose needs to be disconnected from the FPR and left connected to the intake manifold. When you disconnect it if you stick your finger on the tip of the hose you will feel your finger get slightly suctioned onto the hose.... This way you know you have done it right.
Now make sure you have an empty bottle of gatorade or something that is clear so you can see through it and is a 20oz. bottle. Pour the bottle of techron into that clear bottle and then stick the end of the hose into the bottle and let it start sucking out the cleaner into the manifold. The car will attempt to stall so it is best to have someone sitting in the drivers seat presing the gas to hold the rpms around 2-3k as to ensure it not stalling. Once the bottle is down to about 1/4 left tell that person to take their foot off the gas and you just keep the hose at the bottom of the bottle. Let all of the cleaner get sucked out and then the car should stall. If it doesnt stall make it stall immediately.
Let the car sit for at least one hour and then start it up again. It may take a few cranks and it will idle like **** at first, but you will see tons of white smoke coming out the tailpipe. Once that smoke dies down a bit take the car for about a 20 minute drive in all different gears and varying rpms to ensure you have removed all the smoke.


* this guy is referring to a e30 though.


When I replaced my engine with another used engine with 105K on it I noticed a little bit of carbon looking through the spark plug holes. I wasn't a heavy build up but something I want to clear up at some point. First I just wanted to get it in and running to ease my mind. Now it seems to be running fine ( I put about 600mi on it so far) I was shown the sea foam at the local parts store. They also recommended the Techron and Lucas injector cleaner. The Techron sounded good and the Lucas seemed more of a maintenence lube product. When reading the sea foam can it seemed to be what I was looking for but I wasn't sure If it might cause damage. After replacing the engine once, I really didn't want to do it again too soon. It sound like it should be safe to try the Sea Foam though.
Mike

[Bill R.]

Stupid is as Stupid does...






When I replaced my engine with another used engine with 105K on it I noticed a little bit of carbon looking through the spark plug holes. I wasn't a heavy build up but something I want to clear up at some point. First I just wanted to get it in and running to ease my mind. Now it seems to be running fine ( I put about 600mi on it so far) I was shown the sea foam at the local parts store. They also recommended the Techron and Lucas injector cleaner. The Techron sounded good and the Lucas seemed more of a maintenence lube product. When reading the sea foam can it seemed to be what I was looking for but I wasn't sure If it might cause damage. After replacing the engine once, I really didn't want to do it again too soon. It sound like it should be safe to try the Sea Foam though.
Mike

[RobPatt]

I'm no automotive expert and hope I haven't misrepresented myself. I'm just passing along what I've done and has worked thus far. Is this hotsoak method detremental? I do respect and value your opinion, so please either settle or solidify my concern re: hotsoaking. Thanks, -Rob.


Stupid is as Stupid does...

[Bill R.]

When you dump a bunch of solvent directly into a running engine you wash all the lubrication off the cylinder walls... and the rings and pistons depend on a fine layer of oil to keep them lubricated... Say an m50 which has a stroke of 75mm will have each piston travel 150mm per revolution times 1000 rpm for a fast idle.. and you have the piston traveling a little under 500 feet per min with the cylinder lubrication being washed off with solvent... So you'll have the chance for greatly increased piston,cylinder and ring wear for starters
Then you introduce the fluid through a vacum port on the manifold..
Now back when carburators were the norm the ideal manifold carried the mix of fuel vapor and air to all the cylinders evenly, but with fuel injection it just has to carry air flow only evenly each cylinder so they get about the same amount. You dump a can of solvent through the vacum port and that fluid is going to follow the path of least resistance like fluids always do. Which means that the center cylinders or whichever ones are the shortest path from the vacum port you chose are going to get all the fluid and the outer cylinders at the front and back of the block are going to get none.
Next item, a large portion of that solvent is going to wash straight down past the rings and into the crankcase where it dilutes the oil, contributing to possible wear there.
Next item, If you suddenly dump this can in until the engine stalls and do the hot soak, you end up with a big mass of solvent and anything that it loosens up such as carbon all going to a hot catalyitic converter which has a likelyhood of overloading the cat and damaging it ,not to mention possible damage to the o2 sensor or sensors.
If you just use a combustion chamber cleaner that mixes with gas and add it to the tank it will be distributed through the injectors evenly to each cylinder and will be a much more gradual cleaning process not likely to wash any cylinders down or cause any other damage.
The oil resin you see in the intake manifold ports isn't hurting anything and it just indicates that more crankcase blowby is coming through than should.
Almost all the modern engines i take apart have very little carbon in them even at high mileage, nothing like it used to be in the 60s and 70's















I'm no automotive expert and hope I haven't misrepresented myself. I'm just passing along what I've done and has worked thus far. Is this hotsoak method detremental? I do respect and value your opinion, so please either settle or solidify my concern re: hotsoaking. Thanks, -Rob.

[RobPatt]

In the future I'll keep to a slower process, as recommended, to clear out the pinging, and otherwise keep to my headliner, leveling twisted seats, etc. I've since finished the gas and changed the oil.

Should I see a thin rippled black buildup on the tops of the piston when looking through the plug holes? (pic wasn't my manifold..) This, and the pinging, are what led me to try and aggressivly clean it out....

Thanks again. -Rob.


When you dump a bunch of solvent directly into a running engine you wash all the lubrication off the cylinder walls... and the rings and pistons depend on a fine layer of oil to keep them lubricated... Say an m50 which has a stroke of 75mm will have each piston travel 150mm per revolution times 1000 rpm for a fast idle.. and you have the piston traveling a little under 500 feet per min with the cylinder lubrication being washed off with solvent... So you'll have the chance for greatly increased piston,cylinder and ring wear for starters
Then you introduce the fluid through a vacum port on the manifold..
Now back when carburators were the norm the ideal manifold carried the mix of fuel vapor and air to all the cylinders evenly, but with fuel injection it just has to carry air flow only evenly each cylinder so they get about the same amount. You dump a can of solvent through the vacum port and that fluid is going to follow the path of least resistance like fluids always do. Which means that the center cylinders or whichever ones are the shortest path from the vacum port you chose are going to get all the fluid and the outer cylinders at the front and back of the block are going to get none.
Next item, a large portion of that solvent is going to wash straight down past the rings and into the crankcase where it dilutes the oil, contributing to possible wear there.
Next item, If you suddenly dump this can in until the engine stalls and do the hot soak, you end up with a big mass of solvent and anything that it loosens up such as carbon all going to a hot catalyitic converter which has a likelyhood of overloading the cat and damaging it ,not to mention possible damage to the o2 sensor or sensors.
If you just use a combustion chamber cleaner that mixes with gas and add it to the tank it will be distributed through the injectors evenly to each cylinder and will be a much more gradual cleaning process not likely to wash any cylinders down or cause any other damage.
The oil resin you see in the intake manifold ports isn't hurting anything and it just indicates that more crankcase blowby is coming through than should.
Almost all the modern engines i take apart have very little carbon in them even at high mileage, nothing like it used to be in the 60s and 70's

[rot535i]

When you dump a bunch of solvent directly into a running engine you wash all the lubrication off the cylinder walls... and the rings and pistons depend on a fine layer of oil to keep them lubricated... Say an m50 which has a stroke of 75mm will have each piston travel 150mm per revolution times 1000 rpm for a fast idle.. and you have the piston traveling a little under 500 feet per min with the cylinder lubrication being washed off with solvent... So you'll have the chance for greatly increased piston,cylinder and ring wear for starters
Then you introduce the fluid through a vacum port on the manifold..
Now back when carburators were the norm the ideal manifold carried the mix of fuel vapor and air to all the cylinders evenly, but with fuel injection it just has to carry air flow only evenly each cylinder so they get about the same amount. You dump a can of solvent through the vacum port and that fluid is going to follow the path of least resistance like fluids always do. Which means that the center cylinders or whichever ones are the shortest path from the vacum port you chose are going to get all the fluid and the outer cylinders at the front and back of the block are going to get none.
Next item, a large portion of that solvent is going to wash straight down past the rings and into the crankcase where it dilutes the oil, contributing to possible wear there.
Next item, If you suddenly dump this can in until the engine stalls and do the hot soak, you end up with a big mass of solvent and anything that it loosens up such as carbon all going to a hot catalyitic converter which has a likelyhood of overloading the cat and damaging it ,not to mention possible damage to the o2 sensor or sensors.
If you just use a combustion chamber cleaner that mixes with gas and add it to the tank it will be distributed through the injectors evenly to each cylinder and will be a much more gradual cleaning process not likely to wash any cylinders down or cause any other damage.
The oil resin you see in the intake manifold ports isn't hurting anything and it just indicates that more crankcase blowby is coming through than should.
Almost all the modern engines i take apart have very little carbon in them even at high mileage, nothing like it used to be in the 60s and 70's


Just what I didn't want to do.
Thanks.

[Bill R.]

pistons, its perfectly normal when you take into account the combustion process and you'll always see some.. I'd be much more concerned if i didn't see any...





In the future I'll keep to a slower process, as recommended, to clear out the pinging, and otherwise keep to my headliner, leveling twisted seats, etc. I've since finished the gas and changed the oil.

Should I see a thin rippled black buildup on the tops of the piston when looking through the plug holes? (pic wasn't my manifold..) This, and the pinging, are what led me to try and aggressivly clean it out....

Thanks again. -Rob.

[liquidtiger720]

Wow, good info bill. Just reconfirming that I should not do that.