Can't find 0w40 Mobil1 anywhere in Dallas [Archive]

tim

01-15-2005, 08:42 PM

Hey Bill,

If you're still following this thread, let me share what just happened. I am a "MyZone" account holder. I went to do as you suggested, and it said that in my zip code, the 0-40 is in normal dealer stock- so when I went to checkout on the site for an internet pickup order, it wouldn't go through. Nor would they ship it to me. So I went to the local "big" autozone. Nope. Not there and the manager told me he hasn't seen it in awhile and didn't know when they would get it. Oh well. I bought a case of 5w30 (it's for my e39 540), and two quarts of 0w30 and I'll mix it. It's pretty cool around here now so the hot weight is not as much of a concern.

Yes I said 0w30! Personally, I'd never seen it before. I hope its not some sort of switch from the 0w40. Anyway, it says "improved mileage formula" and maybe I'm just the only one who hasn't seen it yet.

- Tim

Bill R.

01-15-2005, 08:59 PM

for awhile. It seems strange that here in Tucson which is about 1/5 the size of Dallas I can go to every autozone and find 0w40 in all of them, You would think that it would be more available in Dallas.
Sorry, just looked and Tucson is about half the size of Dallas

Hey Bill,

If you're still following this thread, let me share what just happened. I am a "MyZone" account holder. I went to do as you suggested, and it said that in my zip code, the 0-40 is in normal dealer stock- so when I went to checkout on the site for an internet pickup order, it wouldn't go through. Nor would they ship it to me. So I went to the local "big" autozone. Nope. Not there and the manager told me he hasn't seen it in awhile and didn't know when they would get it. Oh well. I bought a case of 5w30 (it's for my e39 540), and two quarts of 0w30 and I'll mix it. It's pretty cool around here now so the hot weight is not as much of a concern.

Yes I said 0w30! Personally, I'd never seen it before. I hope its not some sort of switch from the 0w40. Anyway, it says "improved mileage formula" and maybe I'm just the only one who hasn't seen it yet.

- Tim

John B.

01-15-2005, 10:27 PM

So what is the attraction of a zero wt oil particularly in warm climates like Dallas & Tucson? The M30 engines were originally designed to run 20/50 or 10/40 back in the 70s. Is it really a good idea to be running these modern wt oils in an old tech engine like the 3.5 six?

Bill R.

01-15-2005, 10:56 PM

a zero weight at 32degrees F. But at operating temps of 212F its the same thickness as a 40 weight oil. The advantage being that at even the low temps here in the mornings of say 36 F or 40F a 20 w 50 still pours a little slow and thick... and a zero pours a lot easier, meaning on startup when its cold it takes longer for a 20w50 to get to the bearings and valve train to lubricate them since the pump has a harder time sucking the cold thick oil up out of the pan. All you have to do on an m30 is measure the amount of time it takes for the oil pressure light to go off in the morning with a 20w50 versus a 0w40. And looking at the tolerances for the m30 and the clearances they run I would hardly call it old tech. The maximum wear allowed on the cylinder wall to piston clearance is .0059.. While thats looser than the new honda spec of .002 maximum clearance you have to keep in mind that thats an iron block and an aluminum piston and the new honda is a aluminum block and piston so the expansion rates are different.

So what is the attraction of a zero wt oil particularly in warm climates like Dallas & Tucson? The M30 engines were originally designed to run 20/50 or 10/40 back in the 70s. Is it really a good idea to be running these modern wt oils in an old tech engine like the 3.5 six?

winfred

01-15-2005, 11:14 PM

i read about a old ohv volvo i can't remember if it was a b18 or b20 that left the factory without rings(something to do with moving the factory), it used a bit too much oil and on tear down the dealer discovered it had no rings, other then consuming more oil then usual it suposidly ran fine without huge clouds of smoke

And looking at the tolerances for the m30 and the clearances they run I would hardly call it old tech. The maximum wear allowed on the cylinder wall to piston clearance is .0059..

John B.

01-16-2005, 10:19 AM

a zero weight at 32degrees F. But at operating temps of 212F its the same thickness as a 40 weight oil. .

From what I've read about modern multigrades a 5/30 wt oil is created using a 5wt base with additives to make it behave like a 40wt oil at higher temps not the other way around. Is this incorrect? Why go all the way to a zero weight oil for good oil flow? Why not the 5-50wt Castrol that would seem to give you the full range of recommended oils for the M30 engine? 5wt flows well down to temps most of us will never see.

tim

01-16-2005, 11:15 AM

John,

While I am no oil expert by any means, after a few years on this board I've gathered that for most oils (other than high quality synthetics) the largest spread that can be acheived between the cold pour weight, and the SAE weight at temperature is about 25 without the addition of an additive.

As far as I know, only Mobil1, Amsoil, Redline and Castrol have "wide spread" synthetics that can have a wider range without an additive package due to aspects of their refining that are over my head. On my v8's I'd venture to say that 90% of my engine wear occurs in the first few seconds after start, where the rings and valves are basically dry. The other 10% is related to number of start cycles as a function of miles driven. The faster my pump can pull that stuff up and start lubricating the top end, the better, especially if at temperature, it actually is a 40 or 50 wt. oil that the factory specifies for the m60, or a 30 or 40 wt. oil on my m62. If I started springing leaks, then maybe I'd change my policy, but I've only had to do one valve cover gasket on my m60, and that was because the P.O. or his mech did not properly permatex the crescents at the back. I go 5000 between changes and I literally don't lose a drop between changes.

Realistically it probably doesn't matter that much. But when the miles rack up, I think it has a cumulative effect. Whenever I hang around the local BMW haunts, and let someone drive my 540, I get that astonished look, and they say, "jeeze boy, whatcha got in there." A chip and that's it. But obviously my tolerances are still very tight, and few have a good enough memory to recall exactly the way a 540 felt on the seat of the pants when it drove off the lot- and I think mine still basically feels that way. (It's somewhat embarrasing but my wifes '99 540 touring will blow my doors off, but the m62 is a major design improvement IMHO).

So, I don't know if that helps at all. It doesn't make more than .0001% difference every day, but after a coupla hundred thousand miles, it may make all the difference in the world.

Bill R.

01-16-2005, 11:32 AM

conventional oils start out as you say John with a lighter basestock and additives to alter the viscosity, but i don't believe that mobil one , amsoil and redline use any viscosity modifiers, I'm not so sure about the castrol..That was supposed to be one of the advantages of these oil , they don't alter their viscosity as they age since there were no viscosity modifiers added that can burn off..You'd have to poke around on some of the oil sites to verify this such as bob ..The main reason i no longer use the castrol 5w50 and the reason i'm not going to use the bmw synthetic on my new car is that i don't like the amount of buildup or varnish I see when you pull the valve cover off when using these oils... Its probably a non issue but when i run mobil one they seem to stay much cleaner internally..Jr. noticed the same thing on his new one too and wanted me to look up and confirm that mobil one 0w40 was approved by bmw for use and it is

John,

While I am no oil expert by any means, after a few years on this board I've gathered that for most oils (other than high quality synthetics) the largest spread that can be acheived between the cold pour weight, and the SAE weight at temperature is about 25 without the addition of an additive.

As far as I know, only Mobil1, Amsoil, Redline and Castrol have "wide spread" synthetics that can have a wider range without an additive package due to aspects of their refining that are over my head. On my v8's I'd venture to say that 90% of my engine wear occurs in the first few seconds after start, where the rings and valves are basically dry. The other 10% is related to number of start cycles as a function of miles driven. The faster my pump can pull that stuff up and start lubricating the top end, the better, especially if at temperature, it actually is a 40 or 50 wt. oil that the factory specifies for the m60, or a 30 or 40 wt. oil on my m62. If I started springing leaks, then maybe I'd change my policy, but I've only had to do one valve cover gasket on my m60, and that was because the P.O. or his mech did not properly permatex the crescents at the back. I go 5000 between changes and I literally don't lose a drop between changes.

Realistically it probably doesn't matter that much. But when the miles rack up, I think it has a cumulative effect. Whenever I hang around the local BMW haunts, and let someone drive my 540, I get that astonished look, and they say, "jeeze boy, whatcha got in there." A chip and that's it. But obviously my tolerances are still very tight, and few have a good enough memory to recall exactly the way a 540 felt on the seat of the pants when it drove off the lot- and I think mine still basically feels that way. (It's somewhat embarrasing but my wifes '99 540 touring will blow my doors off, but the m62 is a major design improvement IMHO).

So, I don't know if that helps at all. It doesn't make more than .0001% difference every day, but after a coupla hundred thousand miles, it may make all the difference in the world.

dternst

01-16-2005, 01:42 PM

Check with some of the independents in the area: AutoScope, Autobaun, Lone Star Bavarian (Fort Worth), etc.

Warren N.CA

01-16-2005, 04:39 PM

like to drive. But you should start with the yellow pages and make phone calls, 'til you find it. Dallas is way too big to drive all over the place. Why do you care what dumb looks they give you? Are you really that insecure?

Went to Walmart, Pepboys, Autozone and O'reilly. No dice. Plus I got that special look from each place, (kinda like Chevy Chase in "Fletch" when he goes to the airplane mechanics and says he's G.Gordon Liddy) that says in a nutshell "Gosh, you city folks sure are funny. Can't you just use this here Pennzoil."

Anybody 'round here have a source?

632 Regal

01-16-2005, 06:47 PM

everyone here in Mich seems to be out of stock on it also, except the autoparts store next door that has quarts for $5.99 a bottle....sigh

John B.

01-16-2005, 07:02 PM

Its probably a non issue but when i run mobil one they seem to stay much cleaner internally..Jr. noticed the same thing on his new one too and wanted me to look up and confirm that mobil one 0w40 was approved by bmw for use and it is

This brings up another question on these oils. When BMW "approves" of the 0/40 oil are they approving it for an engine like the M30 that went out of production in 92 or just for their engines in current production? How far back are we to assume that approval goes?

Also I'd have to ask how Mobil1 could produce an 0/40 oil without additives? How could an oil span that weight range without them?

Bill R.

01-16-2005, 07:55 PM

Here's the first pdf

bmw oil pdf1 (http://www.bimmernut.com/~billr/images/m52tuSpecialOils.pdf)

Here's another part to that one

Oil pdf2 (http://www.bimmernut.com/~billr/images/specifiedoils.pdf)

As far as how mobil one could engineer a synthetic without any viscosity modifers or additives, I have no idea , I'm not a chemist or petroleum engineer.
I'm only telling you what I have read and have no reason to doubt.

This brings up another question on these oils. When BMW "approves" of the 0/40 oil are they approving it for an engine like the M30 that went out of production in 92 or just for their engines in current production? How far back are we to assume that approval goes?

Also I'd have to ask how Mobil1 could produce an 0/40 oil without additives? How could an oil span that weight range without them?

John B.

01-16-2005, 07:57 PM

From the Mobil 1 website

"All motor oils are made up of base oils and additives. In general, fully synthetic motor oils contain non-conventional, high-performance fluids, such as polyalphaolefins (PAOs). Semi-synthetic oils (also called "blends") usually use a small percentage of non-conventional, high-performance fluids in combination with conventional oil.

To meet the demanding requirements of today's specifications (and our customers' expectations), Mobil 1® uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application. "

Dick Schneiders

01-16-2005, 08:07 PM

the types of polymers that were used on non-synthetic oils to get the various viscosities are a problem and do burn and cause the oil to change over time. However, synthetic oils do not need to use these kinds of additives to get the viscosity range, therefore the problem does not exist. They will have various additives for seal protection, cleansing, etc. but not the stuff that will breakdown. The molecules of sythetic oils are of a specific size and can be controlled to reach the desired viscosity range without weakening the oil with this type of additive. The wide viscosity non-synthetic oils are what should be avoided.

This is from memory, but the gist of this is what I remember reading.

Also I'd have to ask how Mobil1 could produce an 0/40 oil without additives? How could an oil span that weight range without them?

632 Regal

01-16-2005, 08:23 PM

if anyone has serious doubt as to why use synthetic oils I recommend them to use Dino conventional oil and let others use what they wish also.

John B.

01-16-2005, 08:44 PM

if anyone has serious doubt as to why use synthetic oils I recommend them to use Dino conventional oil and let others use what they wish also.

My questions had nothing to do with Dino vs Synthetic oils but were about zero wt oils vs 5wt and higher. I've run Mobil1 in my bikes & cars for longer then some/many of the guys on this list have had a drivers license. I'm currently using 5/30 M1 in my car & wanted to hear why others felt 0/40 was a better choice. Since I've never seen the 0/40 M1 in any store I've oil shopped in this area it probably doesn't matter. Judging from its current unavailability in other areas I'm not alone. If I do come across it sometime I'll give it a try & I thank everyone for their thoughts & info.

632 Regal

01-16-2005, 10:49 PM

has a wider spectrum of viscosity, it flows better when below engine rinning temperature. Just like the manual test of pouring a nice 20w50 into a car at zero degrees vs 0w40 at the same temp, the 20w will seem like molassis and your hand will freeze solid before you empty the bottle.

5w-30 used to be the standard synthetic until 0w-40 came out, more high temp protection while even better low temp lubrication qualities.

I used to run 5w-30 in the race car with NO oil related problems but I'll tell you that I'm going to be using the 0w40 next time around.

Prior to synthetics in the racer there were many oil related catastrophies and none after. after synthetics the engine looked freash at each teardown and we lost the need to replace everything after a few rounds, actually we eventually gained enough confidence to go a whole season without a teardown, still everything clearanced correctly and was almost magical compared to the wear we would get after a few runs.

cary

01-19-2005, 05:03 PM

A few comments to the above posts:

1) Multiweight oils are NOT made from light weight oils. They start as an oil of a specified weight (i.e. 30 weight, 40 weight, 50 weight) and pour point depressants and viscosity improvers are added to improve cold temperature pumpability. Synthetic oils are naturally multiweight because of their homogenous nature so wide span mulitweight synthetics (i.e. 0w-40) can be made with few to no VI and pour point additives.

The issues with sludging as the result of using oils like 10w-40 are long gone in the history books. This occurred in the late 70's as a result of 1) poor quality group I basestocks being used, and 2) poor quality VI and pour point depressants. The vast majority of name brand mineral oils (basically anything that meets API SL) are group II basestocks, and most of the new mineral oils that meet API SM & GF-4 specs are a Group II+/Group III basestock blend (or what would be called a semi-synthetic). Group III oils (hydrocracked, called synth in the US, cannot be called synth in Europe) require few additives to work well in cold weather (Most 5w-40 synths in the US are Group III), and Group IV PAO stocks (full synth) are even better. Mobil has what is called Supersyn that they use in their Synthetic which is a VI improver that has a VI of over 2000 (compare that to the previous best VI improvers which were in the 400 range), so very little is required to improve an oils pour stability. When you combine Mobil's good Group IV PAO basestock and the Supersynth VI improver you get a very stable 0w-40 synthetic oil.

2) Oil Weight. Synthetic oils have better film strength at high temps than minerals. Keep in mind that oil weight is not a specific value but a range. So for 30 weight oils, the oil can be from 10.1 cst to 12.5 cst at 100c. 40 weight can be 12.5 to 16.? cst at 100c. What you can have happen is that there are 30 weight oils that are close to 40 weight and 30 weight oils at the other end that are near 20 weight. For your reference BMW 5w-30 synth is about 12.2 cst, while Mobil 1 30 weights are in the 10.5 cst range.

The most important requirement for BMW oils is they meet ACEA A3. This requires they have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) of greater than 3.5 at 150c. BMW 5w-30 synth meets this. Mobil 1 0w-40 has an HTHS of 3.6, while Mobil 1 30 weights are only 3.1.

Finally, BMW has their own approvals. BMW LL-98, LL-01 and the one month old standard of LL-04. Group III and Group IV oils can be LL-98 approved, but to get LL-01 or LL-04 the oil must be a full synthetic (i.e. Group IV or Group V). Note the current BMW 5w-30 "synth" sold in the US is a Group III oil and only meets LL-98. With the requirement for the new cars (e90 3 series) to get LL-04 oil, this will likely change very soon.

Bottom Line: When you are looking for oil for your BMW (except for those M cars that call for the special 10w-60), you want to find an oil that at a minimum meets ACEA A3. Better yet if it meets BMW LL-01 (you won't find any LL-04 oils on the shelves for at least a few months). In the US only a few oils meet this and Mobil 1 0w-40 is one of the few. That same oil also meets the very stringent Mercedes Benz 229.1,.3,.5 sequences, and VW 502/505 requirements.

tim

01-19-2005, 05:20 PM

Bill R.

01-19-2005, 05:50 PM

primarily of importance to bmw diesel engines with particulate filters on the exhaust.. And that the vast majority of their engines will still use the LL-01 listing that i posted in the pdf files further down. As you can see there are a large number of synthetic oils that meet LL-01 standards that Tim is asking about for his m60 and for his m62...

A few comments to the above posts:

1) Multiweight oils are NOT made from light weight oils. They start as an oil of a specified weight (i.e. 30 weight, 40 weight, 50 weight) and pour point depressants and viscosity improvers are added to improve cold temperature pumpability. Synthetic oils are naturally multiweight because of their homogenous nature so wide span mulitweight synthetics (i.e. 0w-40) can be made with few to no VI and pour point additives.

The issues with sludging as the result of using oils like 10w-40 are long gone in the history books. This occurred in the late 70's as a result of 1) poor quality group I basestocks being used, and 2) poor quality VI and pour point depressants. The vast majority of name brand mineral oils (basically anything that meets API SL) are group II basestocks, and most of the new mineral oils that meet API SM & GF-4 specs are a Group II+/Group III basestock blend (or what would be called a semi-synthetic). Group III oils (hydrocracked, called synth in the US, cannot be called synth in Europe) require few additives to work well in cold weather (Most 5w-40 synths in the US are Group III), and Group IV PAO stocks (full synth) are even better. Mobil has what is called Supersyn that they use in their Synthetic which is a VI improver that has a VI of over 2000 (compare that to the previous best VI improvers which were in the 400 range), so very little is required to improve an oils pour stability. When you combine Mobil's good Group IV PAO basestock and the Supersynth VI improver you get a very stable 0w-40 synthetic oil.

2) Oil Weight. Synthetic oils have better film strength at high temps than minerals. Keep in mind that oil weight is not a specific value but a range. So for 30 weight oils, the oil can be from 10.1 cst to 12.5 cst at 100c. 40 weight can be 12.5 to 16.? cst at 100c. What you can have happen is that there are 30 weight oils that are close to 40 weight and 30 weight oils at the other end that are near 20 weight. For your reference BMW 5w-30 synth is about 12.2 cst, while Mobil 1 30 weights are in the 10.5 cst range.

The most important requirement for BMW oils is they meet ACEA A3. This requires they have a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) of greater than 3.5 at 150c. BMW 5w-30 synth meets this. Mobil 1 0w-40 has an HTHS of 3.6, while Mobil 1 30 weights are only 3.1.

Finally, BMW has their own approvals. BMW LL-98, LL-01 and the one month old standard of LL-04. Group III and Group IV oils can be LL-98 approved, but to get LL-01 or LL-04 the oil must be a full synthetic (i.e. Group IV or Group V). Note the current BMW 5w-30 "synth" sold in the US is a Group III oil and only meets LL-98. With the requirement for the new cars (e90 3 series) to get LL-04 oil, this will likely change very soon.

Bottom Line: When you are looking for oil for your BMW (except for those M cars that call for the special 10w-60), you want to find an oil that at a minimum meets ACEA A3. Better yet if it meets BMW LL-01 (you won't find any LL-04 oils on the shelves for at least a few months). In the US only a few oils meet this and Mobil 1 0w-40 is one of the few. That same oil also meets the very stringent Mercedes Benz 229.1,.3,.5 sequences, and VW 502/505 requirements.

Bill R.

01-19-2005, 05:51 PM

ll-04 (http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2041207.008/bmw/1.html)

John B.

01-19-2005, 08:17 PM

[QUOTE=cary]A few comments to the above posts:

1) Multiweight oils are NOT made from light weight oils. They start as an oil of a specified weight (i.e. 30 weight, 40 weight, 50 weight) and pour point depressants and viscosity improvers are added to improve cold temperature pumpability. Synthetic oils are naturally multiweight because of their homogenous nature so wide span mulitweight synthetics (i.e. 0w-40) can be made with few to no VI and pour point additives.
________________________________________________

According to the tech info at the Redline Oil website conventional multigrade oils ARE made from lightweight oils. They state that a 20/50 oil is made from 20wt oil with a polymeric plastic substance added which thickens at higher temps.

John B.

01-19-2005, 08:52 PM

A few comments to the above posts:
Bottom Line: When you are looking for oil for your BMW (except for those M cars that call for the special 10w-60), you want to find an oil that at a minimum meets ACEA A3. Better yet if it meets BMW LL-01 (you won't find any LL-04 oils on the shelves for at least a few months). In the US only a few oils meet this and Mobil 1 0w-40 is one of the few. That same oil also meets the very stringent Mercedes Benz 229.1,.3,.5 sequences, and VW 502/505 requirements.

Castrol Syntec 0w/30w meets all the same requirements as the Mobil1 0/40w & Syntec 5/40w gets ACEA A3, MB 229.1 & .3 & BMW LL98 approval. It is surprising to see that the Castrol 0/30 meets the specs but the Mobil1 0/30 does not.

GAGE308

01-20-2005, 01:15 AM

Hey dude...Just keep tryin...I got it at Walmart..ever here of that place??...its big Blue....Pretty much Took over the country...LOL...Just Kidding dude...LOL....But thety DO HAVE IT...I Live in Baltimore/Annapolis MD...and Yeserday I was In ATLANTA GA...Just comparing prices...and they had it there as well In Walmart...So Good luck
Don

cary

01-20-2005, 11:53 AM

According to the tech info at the Redline Oil website conventional multigrade oils ARE made from lightweight oils. They state that a 20/50 oil is made from 20wt oil with a polymeric plastic substance added which thickens at higher temps.

The statement is incorrect and Redline has for whatever reason never updated it.

cary

01-20-2005, 12:01 PM

Damn Cary. Thanks for sharing. You said only a few meet the new standard. Other than Mobil1 0w40 and the BMW stuff, what are the others? Redline and Amsoil I presume. Are any of them cheap? ( i'm sorta asking for my e39 m62, more than on my M60.

Also, what is your take on the 15w50 recommendation for the M60? Do the higher shear index numbers of these newer formulations reduce the weight requirements across the board, or should I be sticking to fairly heavy hot weather weight for my 540i, synthetic or otherwise.

Actually, Redline and Amsoil are not BMW LL-01 approved or ACEA certified, although both of their oils appear to meet the specs. I have mixed feelings about both oils. Amsoil is a good product, but the UOA's on it are no better than Mobil 1, they buy their basestocks from Mobil and there appears to be no benifit to paying extra for it. Also, Amsoil tends to thicken out of grade in extended use where Mobil 1 doesn't.

Redline makes great gear and tranny lubes. Their engine oils appear to be great for race cars and provide an extra margin of protection at the limit. The UOA's of Redline in street cars have not been so hot. There have been a multitude of excuses made but the bottom line is that Redline seems to have a lot of trouble holding up in extended oil changes (more than 7500 miles). Check Bobistheoilguy.com for all the UOA's.

I don't believe there is any harm in using 15w-50 in a M60, as long as temps are above 40f. I don't think there is any benifit either. Once again, I caution against deviating from BMW's recommendation for 10w-60 in certain M cars that have had bearing problems.

cary

01-20-2005, 12:22 PM

Castrol Syntec 0w/30w meets all the same requirements as the Mobil1 0/40w & Syntec 5/40w gets ACEA A3, MB 229.1 & .3 & BMW LL98 approval. It is surprising to see that the Castrol 0/30 meets the specs but the Mobil1 0/30 does not.

Be careful as there are two forumulations of Castrol 0w-30 floating around in the US. There is the US made Castrol 0w-30 (yellow label) which does not meet A3 or BMW LL-01 and there is what is termed "German Castrol" which has a red label, says on the back made in Germany, and clearly lists that it is A3 and BMW LL-01 approved. Make sure you check the bottle.

The reason that the Castrol meets BMW LL-01 and the Mobil 0w-30 does not goes back to my discussion above concerning 30 weight oils being forumulated from 10.0 cst-12.5 cst @ 100c. Castrol is formulated at about 12.2 cst puting it near a 40 weight and having a HTHS of 3.6 while Mobil 1 30 weights are formulated in the 10.5 cst range (closer to a 20 weight) and only have an HTHS of 3.1 or so. This is why Mobil makes the 0w-40. You will find that all A3 approved 30 weight oils are on the heavy end of the 30 weight scale approaching 40 weight (generally they have a cst of 11.9 or greater at 100c).

Concerning the list that was posted earlier of BMW LL-01 approved oils, it is a great list. THe problem is most of those oils are Europe only oils. Just remember if the oil is BMW LL-01 approved it will say on the back of the bottle. If you can't find a BMW LL-01 oil, fall back and look for oils that have ACEA A3 approval (AVOID ACEA A1 or A5 which are for lighter oils and mutually exclusive of A3). Mercedes Benz (MB) 229.3 and 229.5 are also signs of a top quality synthetic.

John B.

01-20-2005, 02:15 PM

philbyil

01-20-2005, 02:40 PM

cary

01-20-2005, 04:34 PM

I run 15w50 Mobil1 year round in all my cars in Illinois and will do the same when we move down to Texas in July.

15w50 is spec'd out in the manuals and the pour point is lower than 5w dino....!

15w50 5 qt jugs can be found in just about any Wal-Mart! I pick up 4 at a time....

15w-50 Synth may have a lower pour point than 5w dino, but it is still thicker at low temps than 5w oils. It simply continues to flow longer. Remember pour point is simply that the oil when put on a steel plate will show movement within 5 seconds of the plate being turned vertical. This does not tell you how well it pumps at low temps. If a 15w-50 oil were thinner than a 5w oil at low temps it wouldn't be called a 15w it would called a 0w.

cary

01-20-2005, 04:37 PM

I was just pointing out the other oils that meet the specs. I'm happy with 5/30 Mobil 1 for the time being but will look around my area and see what's available. I do find it interesting that when BMW decided to market an oil they went with a 5/30 as opposed to the 0/30 or 0/40. I'd also have to wonder how much the difference between a LL-98 & LL-01 rating really matters for engines like the m30 which has been out of production since 93. Kind of reminds me of all the bs about not using anything but the BMW antifreeze in these old engines when there are other brands on the market that meet the same specs, made by the same mfgr at half the price but without BMWs' seal of approval.

But you shouldn't be using Mobil 1 5w-30 as it is a very thin 30 weight oil. See my above posts. For any BMW motor (most European cars for that matter) you want to use an oil that is ACEA A3 approved. Mobil 1 5w-30 is to thin to meet this requirement and will lead to (marginally) accelerated cam wear.

John B.

01-20-2005, 07:21 PM

But you shouldn't be using Mobil 1 5w-30 as it is a very thin 30 weight oil. See my above posts. For any BMW motor (most European cars for that matter) you want to use an oil that is ACEA A3 approved. Mobil 1 5w-30 is to thin to meet this requirement and will lead to (marginally) accelerated cam wear.

And what actual proof of this wear do you have? What do you think most guys were running before they switched to the 0/40? Personally I think my cams will be just fine with the Mobil 1 5/30 over the winter months. I'll be in some stores this weekend & I'll see whats available around here for alternatives. When did the ACEA A3 spec come into being?

philbyil

01-21-2005, 11:22 AM

we all know that synthetics "cling" better (better cold starting protection) plus my oil pressure gauge shows that as soon as my motor fires, the oil temp gauge moves nicely to an indicated 60psi with nary a click/tap/knock/bang coming out of the motor.

DallasBill

01-21-2005, 11:31 AM

Tim... the Walmart Supercenter on Marsh, north of Trinity Mills, has lots of 0w-40 in quarts.

cary

01-21-2005, 11:43 AM

And what actual proof of this wear do you have? What do you think most guys were running before they switched to the 0/40? Personally I think my cams will be just fine with the Mobil 1 5/30 over the winter months. I'll be in some stores this weekend & I'll see whats available around here for alternatives. When did the ACEA A3 spec come into being?

ACEA A3 has been around for a long time. If you want to see evidence of accelerated wear start sifting throught the 100's of used oil analysis on bob is the oil guy .com and see the decreases in wear with 40 weight oils.

Using 5w-30 in the winter months is fine, but it is not a good idea to run it in warmer temps because of its lack of film strength will lead to accelerated wear.

Here is a link setting out BMW's requirements for LL approval:

http://www.motul.co.jp/eg/fact_sheets/maker_approval.html

Here are the links to Mobil's pages for 5w-30 and 0w-40, note the 5w-30 has no BMW, MB or A3 rating as it is a A5 oil.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-30.asp

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_0W-40.asp

There is also a 50 page booklet that sets out the requirements to meet all ACEA specs and MB specs, but I am having trouble locating it right now.

tim

01-21-2005, 01:10 PM

Tim... the Walmart Supercenter on Marsh, north of Trinity Mills, has lots of 0w-40 in quarts.

Really, good. That's the one I usually go to anyway. They used to have it in the 5 quart container, but I haven't seen that in quite awhile, but under the current circumstances, I'll buy a coupla boxes of the quart containers.

John B.

01-21-2005, 01:16 PM

The statement is incorrect and Redline has for whatever reason never updated it.

Cary - I sent your "theory" on multiweight oil to Redlines techs & asked what they thought as I still believe you are wrong. Here is their reply that completely contradicts what you stated.

Request Type : Technical Request
Message : Could you please advise me whether the following statement is true.
"1) Multiweight oils are NOT made from light weight oils. They start as an oil of a specified weight (i.e. 30 weight, 40 weight, 50 weight) and pour point depressants and viscosity improvers are added to improve cold temperature pumpability. Synthetic oils are naturally multiweight because of their homogenous nature so wide span mulitweight synthetics (i.e. 0w-40) can be made with few to no VI and pour point additives."

The tech info you provide in your motor oil section directly contradicts the above when you state that a conventional 20/50 is made from 20wt oil with additives to thicken when hot. Which is the truth? Do they start with a 20wt or a 50wt.

John,

A multiweight oil begins with a low viscosity oil, to it is added a VI improver. A VI improver never helps but only hurts the low temperature characteristics so it needs to be added to a lower viscosity base stock to compensate. Pour point depressants can't fully compensate for the viscosity index improvers poor low temperature characteristics. A conventional petroleum 20W50 starts with a 20W base oil and to that is added polymers. A 10W40 synthetic oil can be produced without thickeners or polymers but that is the limit, a 0W40 cannot.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

Dick Schneiders

01-21-2005, 02:58 PM

this I still don't see where it refutes the fact that *synthetic* wide range oils like 10w-40 or even 0w-40 don't need any additive polymers, or perhaps very few to achieve the desired viscosity range. As I recall from the beginning of this discussion, that was one of your contentions about the problems of wide viscosity range oils. This is a problem with any non-synthetic ranged oils, and more of a problem the wider the range.

Cary - I sent your "theory" on multiweight oil to Redlines techs & asked what they thought as I still believe you are wrong. Here is their reply that completely contradicts what you stated.

Request Type : Technical Request
Message : Could you please advise me whether the following statement is true.
"1) Multiweight oils are NOT made from light weight oils. They start as an oil of a specified weight (i.e. 30 weight, 40 weight, 50 weight) and pour point depressants and viscosity improvers are added to improve cold temperature pumpability. Synthetic oils are naturally multiweight because of their homogenous nature so wide span mulitweight synthetics (i.e. 0w-40) can be made with few to no VI and pour point additives."

The tech info you provide in your motor oil section directly contradicts the above when you state that a conventional 20/50 is made from 20wt oil with additives to thicken when hot. Which is the truth? Do they start with a 20wt or a 50wt.

John,

A multiweight oil begins with a low viscosity oil, to it is added a VI improver. A VI improver never helps but only hurts the low temperature characteristics so it needs to be added to a lower viscosity base stock to compensate. Pour point depressants can't fully compensate for the viscosity index improvers poor low temperature characteristics. A conventional petroleum 20W50 starts with a 20W base oil and to that is added polymers. A 10W40 synthetic oil can be produced without thickeners or polymers but that is the limit, a 0W40 cannot.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

cary

01-21-2005, 04:06 PM

Cary - I sent your "theory" on multiweight oil to Redlines techs & asked what they thought as I still believe you are wrong. Here is their reply that completely contradicts what you stated.

John,

A multiweight oil begins with a low viscosity oil, to it is added a VI improver. A VI improver never helps but only hurts the low temperature characteristics so it needs to be added to a lower viscosity base stock to compensate. Pour point depressants can't fully compensate for the viscosity index improvers poor low temperature characteristics. A conventional petroleum 20W50 starts with a 20W base oil and to that is added polymers. A 10W40 synthetic oil can be produced without thickeners or polymers but that is the limit, a 0W40 cannot.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

It is actually inbetween what Dave Granquest and I say. Here is an extended discussion of how multiweight oils are forumulated:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007957#000000

Rather ironically, if you follow the link from this discussion to Redline's European site you get a discussion under their FAQ which reads:

During the war, engine development was accelerated, with far higher engine speeds and bearing loads being introduced by advances in aeroplane engine technology. This was reflected in post war car engines: standard saloon car engines having the capability of providing pre-war racing engine power outputs. However higher film strengths and therefore heavier weight oils were necessary. Unfortunately the SAE 50 weight oil needed in these engines when hot, has thickened sufficiently by zero centigrade to prevent an engine being cranked. Engine oils needed to be changed from summer to winter, with the attendant problems of variable weather conditions and climates where both extremes were found daily.

Long chain viscosity modifying polymers came to the rescue. The plastics industry was developing from petro-chemical research carried out during the war years. One of the discoveries made was the capability of manufacturing long chain hydrocarbon molecules or polymers. Properties of some these polymers included the capability of thickening engine oil at high temperature, without affecting the viscosity at lower temperatures. An SAE 30 weight oil can thus be transformed into an SAE 50 by means of a simple additive package, without affecting the lower temperature usability.
To differentiate between 'straight' oils and those which had viscosity modifiers added, the winter or 'w' rating test was introduced. Oils were originally tested by the floating of a needle on the surface of oil in an open vessel. The oil was cooled in 5 degree centigrade increments until there was no movement of the needle when the vessel was tipped. The oil was then rated as to be usable at the previous higher temperature. Although today's testing is slightly more sophisticated, the results are the same, leading to oils being classified for cold temperature use from the table (2) below.

Straight SAE 30 oil tested in such a fashion shows it is useable down to minus 10 degrees, thus this oil can be called an SAE 20w30. By adding viscosity modifiers to thicken the oil to an SAE 50 viscosity at high temperature then the oil becomes an SAE 20w50. A 50 weight oil, only good for operation at 0 centigrade, can be called an SAE 30w50. Two oils, both SAE 50, identical under the old definition, are thus now easily distinguishable. This became the world wide accepted commercial method of identifying engine oils. To the benefit of both the oil producers and the motorist, the pre-war standard SAE 30 was converted by means of an easy additive into the beloved 20w50.

This follows with the discussion from Bobistheoilguy.com concerning how base oils are actually blended.

Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding I may have caused.

Cary

cary

01-21-2005, 04:10 PM

Dick Schneiders

01-21-2005, 04:38 PM

on several different sites on oil that the polymers are either not used or do not create a problem on the wide range viscosity synthetic oils. I am not going to wade back through all of this again, but I think that was one of John B.'s early contentions, that they were a problem, and was one that even I knew was incorrect.

Thanks for all of your input and research on this topic.

He isn't refuting that statement. I believe that Dave Granquest of Redline is correct when he says that you can make 10w-40 synth oils with no thickners or polymers. Redline has stated publicly that their only oil to use any thickners or polymers is their 5w-40. That is one of the advantages of Syths is they require less additives like VI improvers to meet grade.