Central locking sync issues

[doogie]

I cannot for the life of me to get my locks to sync :(

OK... the issue I have is that if I lock the doors (either single or double) they spring open immediately, and then stay locked the second time I turn the key.

This appears from what I've read to point to needing to sync the locks, which I've tried a million times in a variety of combinations, including disconnecting the battery etc and still I get the bounce back.

I get a feeling it might be to do with the central locking control functions on my alarm (I started pulling things apart but didn't actually disconnect anything, starting to look at how to get my alarm to double lock the doors) but I've disconnected this and still no joy (although I've yet to completely disconnect the wires from the blue 3m locks that they're joined with)

The main sync procedure I've tried is

unlock car
turn key to double lock position and hold till all actuators clunk
(pins lock and then spring straight open)
unlock

rinse and repeat ad-infinitum.

Even if I sit in the car and press the door pin down, they spring straight back up first time, then stays locked the second time..... it's crazy!

A definitive answer would be much appreciated! :-)

Cheers

Doogie

[shogun]

Probably one of the microswitches in the doors or the trunk does give a signal back to the GM, that one door is not locked. That is why the doors unlock again. Or the microswitches are not fitted exactly or are misoperating.
The later GM's do not have this function anymore. I copied for you something:

You are probably getting a wrong signal from one of the microswitches.

You are looking for the better function of the GM p/n 61 35 8 356 095 and others used from production date 09/91, which has the following features:

-Repeat and time interlock for headwashers, time interlock 3 min.
-headlight washing pump at fifth windshield washing after time interlock
-intensiv washing pump operating at reduced time from 3 to 2 seconds
-minimum interval for wipers reduced to 2 from 3 seconds (programmmable)
-increased wiper contact pressure during windshield washing now also provided


-previously the GM would react opposing signals (e.g. an unlock signal while trying to lock, as with a defective microswitch) by carrying out the first command (e.g. locking, followed immediately by unlocking). Repeating the first command then results in carrying out the command, e.g. try to lock again, and locking is now carried out. This function (Asynchronious Position)is omitted in the NEW GM.
-After unlocking is performed due to crash sensor activiation, the locking command is now reactivated by double-locking with the key from either side (driver or passenger door).
-The "one-touch" operation of windows has been expanded to all 4 windows in OPENING direction. Drivers side has one touch in both directions
-Sunroof is not already in the tilt position.
-switch off delay of the interior lights after entering the vehicle and closing the driver's door reduced from 20 to 15 seconds.

[Javier]

Do you have an open door alarm or interior lights issues? Any other issues?

Are all the knobs moving down when you lock the car?

Does this happens when you use the front door knobs, no mater the door you use? Remember that using the driver's door knob requires the door to be closed. Do both knobs open the system when pulled?

What happen when you lock the car trough the trunk cylinder? And when you unlock trunk?

The more info you bring, the better we can help.

Javier

[doogie]

Probably one of the microswitches in the doors or the trunk does give a signal back to the GM, that one door is not locked. That is why the doors unlock again. Or the microswitches are not fitted exactly or are misoperating.
The later GM's do not have this function anymore. I copied for you something:

You are probably getting a wrong signal from one of the microswitches.


OK.... it was working pretty much A-OK till Friday.... I'll possibly investigate the microswitches, and probably keep the replacement GM as a bit of a last resort... hopefully it's just something simple

[doogie]

Do you have an open door alarm or interior lights issues? Any other issues?
Nope


Are all the knobs moving down when you lock the car?

Yep


Does this happens when you use the front door knobs, no mater the door you use? Remember that using the driver's door knob requires the door to be closed. Do both knobs open the system when pulled?

Driver's door (RHD) down all lock (but straight away unlock). Passenger door and any other door down, only that single door locks. Driver's door or passenger door up while locked, all doors unlock.


What happen when you lock the car trough the trunk cylinder? And when you unlock trunk?
I've always had a problem with the trunk since I got it.... it always opens with central locking, but can't be operated with a key.... seems to be a mechanical issue of the key not being able to turn the lock at all, never bothered to look into it.

Thanks

Doogie

[digitaldragon03]

I have a similar problem, except that my passenger side lock doesnt go down. I have to go that door and lock it from there.

[Javier]

the doors knob behavior is correct, motors are OK, and responses to knob push/pull are OK, guess the problem is not on the doors. Front passenger door knob don't lock the car when pushed down until 1992 models. The system is configured to unlock immediately after the lock request, if a monitored device fail to lock, monitored devices (up to 92 at least) are only driver's door and trunk. To test the trunk Micro-switch we need to turn the key left/right and observe system response, attention, the trunk lock does nothing if the system is in central arrest mode (double lock). You cannot do this, I know. I would suggest, under the suspicion that the trunk is not reporting lock state, to ask for lock repeatedly, and have someone at the trunk, listening the lock cylinder. If the system believes the trunk is unlocked, you will hear the motor attempting to lock the trunk, no mater it is already locked. The sound should be different to the one that accomplish the lock position, as the motor will not operate but will try to.

The best diagnose would be to open the trunk, lock the car, unplug the trunk lock actuator, and test for continuity between pins 1 and 3 of the socket were X311 was plugged in, there should be continuity indicating micro switch is closed, thus lock is in locked position. X311 is the connector plug (Black, 6 pins, see picture for pin ID), going into the trunk lock motor actuator, follow the posted link and look for part # 10.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HB22&mospid=47369&prod=19890400&btnr=41_0821&hg=41&fg=60

If you plug back X311, unlock the car, unplug X311, and check continuity between socket pins 1 and 3 again, they should be opened, and if you then test continuity between 2 and 3, they should be closed (they were opened wile locked trunk). Note we are taking readings in the motor actuator, not the harness going to the General Module.

If the switch inside the motor actuator does not behave like I told, then it is wrong; if you feel comfortable with Micro mechanics, just try to fix it.

Note I presume that trunk lock follow the lock unlock request (I mean motor is operating) but feedback micro switch is not working.

Let me know you findings so we can go on with harness test, if not the Lock motor actuator.

Javier

[Paul in NZ]

isnt this also caused by short circuiting in the boot hinge wire loom?????

[Javier]

only possible causes are: a) the actuator itself (inside, there is a tiny motor, with some weak connecting pins, and also a couple micro switches), b) dirty or corroded pins at the connecting plug to the motor actuator, and c) dirty or corroded pins at the connection from the door harness to the car body (at the pillar, see pictures).

c) is the easiest to check but less probable, b) require removing the door trim panel, and a) requires, besides b) requirements, to remove the lock motor actuator and play with it a little, it is my believe that this is the most probable cause.

The Relay module sends power to all the lock motors together, so if just only one is working, the fault has nothing to do with it or the general module.

Javier

Edit: Links to missed pictures

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=829&stc=1
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=830&stc=1

[Javier]

then it is necessary to check the harness to the GM, and boot hinge is the must critical section.

Javier

[doogie]

Hi Javier,

Thanks for your very detailed response :)

I've been out and doing some messing around. I removed the trunk lock actuator and I've observed the following:-

Manually operating the actuator (pulling it out) locks the car and pin continuity is as you describe. Pushing the actuator back together does not lock the car. When the car is locked by this method, subsequent lock and unlocks from the doors are fine - no double up problem.

Having the actuator out but connected to the plug and locking/ unlocking from doors - the actuator does not move in or out at all - is this the correct behaviour?

Does this suggest that it's an actuator problem or a wiring problem?

Thanks

Doogie

[Javier]

a wiring problem, and contrary to what you believed, the trunk and (probably the gas fill gate) were kept unlocked all the time. Let's have these simple checks:

Lock the car and check gas-filling gate, is it locked? Unlock the car and check again, is it unlocked?

If the gas-filling gate is not working, you should check for the wiring harness from the trunk to the General Module, you are looking specially for white and blue wires.

If gas-filling gate is working fine, probably you have a bad actuator or hinge harness problem, check for voltage pulse at the plug X311, pins 4 and 5 (White and Blue wires) wile a lock or unlock order is issued. If no voltage pulse there, check for the blue and white wire integrity up to the point were it splices with the wires going to the gas fill gate motor. The wires concealed in the left hand trunk hinge typically fail, take a look to these two posts looking for hints on were to check.

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=2586&highlight=hinge+trunk

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?postid=27726&highlight=hinge+trunk#post27726

If voltage is there, I feel actuator is in trouble. If you feel comfortable, open it and check for visible damage, worn/dirty connections, or similar issues, power it straight from a 12 Vdc source wile checking operation, pin 4 and 5 are the power to the motor, polarity can be reversed for reverse operation.

Please let us know your findings.

Javier

[doogie]

I've not been out to the car since I read this, but I have double checked earlier - when it locks (the second time I turn the lock) the trunk and gas gate are definetley locked, as are all the doors.... believe me I'm paranoid enough to have checked that already ;)

Just to check this before I mess around- should the actuator move when voltage is applied across 4 & 5 and move back when it's reversed - ie does it shoot in and out like a solenoid?

I'll try to pop it out after work tomorrow (unless I'm feeling adventurous at lunch time ;))

Thanks

Doogie

[Javier]

You wrote:

"Having the actuator out but connected to the plug and locking/ unlocking from doors - the actuator does not move in or out at all - is this the correct behaviour?"

Do you mean that if you assemble the actuator back in the trunk lid it works, but not wile removed but plugged?

Would you like to go in chat room?

Javier

[doogie]

Hiya,

Right.... when the car locks the trunk is locked and doesn't open, and does open when unlocked, but the actuator does not move when it is sitting plugged in (without the metal linkage bit connected) - I've not had it in my hand while someone else locks and unlocks, but I've had it sitting there, locked, walked back to boot and it is still in the in position. If I slide it out the central locking is fired and locks the car straight away.

With the actuator plugged in should it slide out (to the position that locks the central locking) when I lock the system from the doors and slide back in when I unlock from the doors? If so, that's definetley not working!

I'm guessing this is sounding like a dead or at least partially failing actuator?

Cheers

Doogie

[Javier]

commands, sliding in/out manually should also unlock/lock the car, that's what you accomplish when operating the key in the trunk. When key cylinder turns counter clockwise it pushes the actuator in, unlocking the trunk (and doors if not double locked), when key cylinder turns clockwise, it pulls the actuator out and lock the car), if key is turned back to vertical position, trunk lock obeys the car lock system, if not turned back, key cylinder keeps actuator pulled out and trunk remains locked no mater the doors status.

Please confirm these sentences for me:

a) With the actuator unhooked but plugged, you lock the door and the car knobs pops out, if you lock door again, they stay down but the trunk actuator stays in. If you pull out the trunk actuator, central locking try to lock already locked doors.

b) With the actuator unhooked but plugged, you unlock the door and the car knobs pops out, but the trunk actuator stays out. If you push in the trunk actuator, central locking try to unlock already unlocked doors.

c) With the actuator hooked in place and plugged, you lock the door and the car knobs pops out, if you lock door again, they stay down and the trunk actuator go out and lock the trunk. If you push in the trunk actuator, central locking unlocks already locked doors.

d) With the actuator hooked in place and plugged, you unlock the door and the car knobs pops out, and the trunk actuator go in and unlock the trunk. If you pull out the trunk actuator, central locking locks unlocked doors.

If c) and d) are OK, the actuator and wiring to General module are OK!!

Javier

[Javier]

and knobs pop back up, and you do not lock again, the trunk actuator will end in unlock position, that is normal. Failure is that you lock twice holding the knobs down, and trunk actuator stay in unlock position.

Please remember you are walking dangerous grounds, as you will not be able to unlock the trunk with the key, if it ends up locked with the actuator inoperable.

Intermittent faults may be caused by wiring harness defects, even more if open/closed trunk lid is involved, due to the left hinge harness movement. Check them per the linked posts.

Javier

[doogie]

Aha!

OK, been out at lunch time with this page printed out, tried messing around and had a look at the harness..... I found *7* wires sliced clean through, and a few with the sheathing cut but the copper still intact.

I didn't have any connecting blocks with me so I've wrapped and black taped them and taken as much strain off them as possible.... and with everything connected the central locking works as it should :D

Thanks a million for the advice!

Any pointers on what best to use to join the wires permanently and relieve the strain so it doesn't happen in the future?

Any ideas on my non-functioning trunk lock? It almost seems like the key is the wrong one for the lock..... it doesn't seem to budge either way at all (not wanting to try too hard incase I snap the key!) and I'm using the main key with the light in it and S stamped on it, not a spare key.

Thanks

Doogie

[Javier]

the very beginning as Paul recommended.

What else was not working? Good thing is that now you have a good understanding on how the system works.

It is probable that previous owner installed a new cylinder and gave no new key. Also may be jamb. I would take it out, and bring it to a locksmith to clean and lubricate or make it work with the car key.

Javier

[rbeaud]

If you didn't have this discussion, I wouldn't have learned more about the CL system :) I still haven't been able to take advantage of all the advice you have given me in the past, but I do have some more info.

When I attempt to lock the car, the locks immediately cycle. Further, my pass actuator will not lock but will respond to an unlock command (if locked manually). Do you know the pin assignments that would allow me to directly power the lock? Or is it that if it unlocks it must also lock (when given the correct signal, i.e. wiring harness issue)?

My gas gate does not respond to lock/unlock commands. Where do I look for the wiring and how can I force the lock command (by powering it directly)?

The car will lock from the trunk (except for the pesky pass door), without cycling immediately to lock. Does this say anything about potential faults?

Cheers,

Roland- Javier is the CLS king!



the very beginning as Paul recommended.

What else was not working? Good thing is that now you have a good understanding on how the system works.

It is probable that previous owner installed a new cylinder and gave no new key. Also may be jamb. I would take it out, and bring it to a locksmith to clean and lubricate or make it work with the car key.

Javier

[doogie]

LOL, I should've checked first as it seems to come up a fair bit. I was amazed at what a state that was in...... that must be about 40% of the wires that were broken.... :eek:

I don't know what else wasn't working right.... I need to have a poke at the rest of the stuff when I'm fixing everything properly.

Good suggestion about the cylinder/ key thing..... is there any way that I can take the lock cylinder out and secure the trunk? I'm just thinking about the practicalities of taking it out and giving it to a locksmith :-)

Thanks

[Javier]

in the garage fo a couple days.

Javier ;)

[Javier]

you on the issue, just to get more info, but not succeeded, so let's learn a couple things together:

What do you mean with: “When I attempt to lock the car, the locks immediately cycle” and “The car will lock from the trunk (except for the pesky pass door), without cycling immediately to lock” Cycle-ing is what I do not understand.

Questions: When you refer to pass door, which one is it (front differs from rears).

What happens when you manually lock the rebel door, before attempting a central lock? Can you double lock (central arrest) the rebel door? I mean, once double locked, knob cannot be pulled up.

Why you talked about the trunk, is there any issues with the trunk? Is the trunk following lock unlock instructions when commanded from the front doors?

If the rebel door is front passenger’s, is the system attending pull out knob, for unlock request. (of course, not with central arrest).

Are you having pop up responses to lock commands? With any front door? Keyless entry, if installed?

If you put some pressure over the rebel door knob, not enough to lock it, will this helps the motor to lock at electrical command?

Gas door lock motor is wired in parallel to trunk lid lock motor, so there is no reason for one not to work, wile the second does, other than damaged motor or wiring. If you remove the trunk left side trimming, just as you would do to gain access to the jack, you will see, attached to the fender, the gas door lock actuator, it is feed by a blue and a white wire that are connected to the actuator trough X312 (Pins 4 and 5), a connector identical to the X311 posted for the trunk actuator. Unplug the X312 connector and check wit a voltmeter for voltage pulse between pins 4 and 5 under lock/unlock commands. If none, check wires blue and white up to General module if necessary. If voltage pulse is present, apply 12 Vdc to the actuator pins 4 and 5, it should move forward, reverse voltage polarity and it will move back. Again, if actuator does not react to direct voltage feed, you may open it and look for worn/dirty internal connections, visual damage or broken parts (Last chance is to realize motor is damaged and you need an actuator replacement).

Javier

[doogie]

in the garage fo a couple days.

LOL, if only I had the luxury of a garage!.... it would mean I wouldn't have to do all my work out in the cold in the street....... :(

[rbeaud]

You and I emailed many moons ago on the problem, I still have your detailed door removal procedure.

Responses below in bold.


you on the issue, just to get more info, but not succeeded, so let's learn a couple things together:

What do you mean with: “When I attempt to lock the car, the locks immediately cycle” and “The car will lock from the trunk (except for the pesky pass door), without cycling immediately to lock” Cycle-ing is what I do not understand.

By cycling, I mean that when the door lock command is given by inserting the key in to the fr. driver's door, the CLS locks and then immediately unlocks all but the fr. passenger lock (the pesky lock).

Questions: When you refer to pass door, which one is it (front differs from rears).
Sorry, as above it is the front passenger door.

What happens when you manually lock the rebel door, before attempting a central lock? Can you double lock (central arrest) the rebel door? I mean, once double locked, knob cannot be pulled up.

If I first manually lock the door, CLS allows me to lock the remaining doors without then unlocking the doors. I can't remember if double locking is possible, but I think it is.

Why you talked about the trunk, is there any issues with the trunk? Is the trunk following lock unlock instructions when commanded from the front doors?


The trunk appears to respond to commands. When locking using the trunk there is no lock/unlock cycling which is different than when using the front driver's door.

If the rebel door is front passenger’s, is the system attending pull out knob, for unlock request. (of course, not with central arrest).

If you mean, can the offending door be unlocked with the key?, then yes it will respond to unlock commands

Are you having pop up responses to lock commands? With any front door? Keyless entry, if installed?

I'm not sure if this is the correct answer, but the system locks and unlocks as the commanded by the key other than the issues described above. No keyless entry

If you put some pressure over the rebel door knob, not enough to lock it, will this helps the motor to lock at electrical command?

I can't remember if I have tried this before. I'll let you know.

Gas door lock motor is wired in parallel to trunk lid lock motor, so there is no reason for one not to work, wile the second does, other than damaged motor or wiring. If you remove the trunk left side trimming, just as you would do to gain access to the jack, you will see, attached to the fender, the gas door lock actuator, it is feed by a blue and a white wire that are connected to the actuator trough X312 (Pins 4 and 5), a connector identical to the X311 posted for the trunk actuator. Unplug the X312 connector and check wit a voltmeter for voltage pulse between pins 4 and 5 under lock/unlock commands. If none, check wires blue and white up to General module if necessary. If voltage pulse is present, apply 12 Vdc to the actuator pins 4 and 5, it should move forward, reverse voltage polarity and it will move back. Again, if actuator does not react to direct voltage feed, you may open it and look for worn/dirty internal connections, visual damage or broken parts (Last chance is to realize motor is damaged and you need an actuator replacement).

Javier

[Javier]

May be you can get inspired and find a way to tie a wire to the trunk lock and drive it to the car interior, Who knows, I've never tried.

Don't blame on me, though, if you end up breaking apart your trunk lid to get access.

Also think it is something that can wait until spring!

Javier

[Javier]

and is the reason I did not found early posts. I didn't look that back.

Some important thing, the door lock actuators in your car differ from mine, so the pictures I sent on how to disassemble it, do not apply to your car.

Per your responses:

If I first manually lock the door, CLS allows me to lock the remaining doors without then unlocking the doors. I can't remember if double locking is possible, but I think it is.

Central locking is not supposed to bother if the front passenger door remains unlocked (1990 model isn't it?), so there is no reason to have solved the cycling problem pushing down the knob. I mean, no matter what status is the front passenger door, it will cycle (please confirm keeping knob pushed down wile key locking). Would like to be certain it double lock front passenger door.

The trunk appears to respond to commands. When locking using the trunk there is no lock/unlock cycling which is different than when using the front driver's door.

If operating the key in the trunk works the rest of the car, and does not cycle, it means the trunk is the offending lock actuator. If the actuator does not lock on time (or completely), the feedback contact does not close telling the CM it was left unlocked. Please confirm the trunk is getting locked/unlocked when the locks are operated from the doors. Also test the contact just like suggested to doogie. (Also take some time to check harnesses).

If you mean, can the offending door be unlocked with the key?, then yes it will respond to unlock commands
No key, I meant pulling up the knob. This should unlock all the doors and trunk.

I'm not sure if this is the correct answer, but the system locks and unlocks as the commanded by the key other than the issues described above. No keyless entry

No mater, guess the system cycle wile locked from any front door, but not when locked from trunk, isn't it?

I can't remember if I have tried this before. I'll let you know.

This will reveal the motor trying to, but sticky.

I guess you have a trunk lock actuator issue, just like doogie, not the same reasons necessarily. Debug the contact feedback without hand intervention, I mean, check contact continuity without moving the lock actuator with your hands after a lock/re-lock attempt, and after an unlock attempt. Also check trunk is getting locked/unlocked.

Let me know about pending on front passenger door, I will look the drawings and develop some testing procedure for you.

Javier