Discussion on buying and selling on E-bay...

[George M]

Hey Gang,
Since most of us by now have bought and sold on E-bay, thought I would ask how most respond to a couple of different scenarios and what the result has been. Want to say, I have been pretty lucky overall and the E-bay system seems pretty solid but have a question about both buying and selling.

Selling: Have a item I sold recently and the buyer who won the auction hasn't paid. I sell only to people in the US and only accept Paypal. I stipulate on my description that if payment isn't made in 3 days, buyer will forfeit item and I will relist. That is where I am at as I write this. I have sent of course an invoice and follow up e-mail requesting payment and would ship immediately upon payment...yada yada...no response and no payment. What do you guys do at this point? Do you contact E-bay...if so how? The single most important thing to me is my feedback which is 100% and want to protect this at all costs. I don't want a disgruntled dead beat buyer to ding my feedback if I take them to task for not paying. How long should I wait?...any advice?

Second scenario:
Buying: By and large I have had great experience buying stuff on e-bay. Of course it is incumbent upon the buyer to purchase from reputable sellers with good feedback...I avoid those with less than 98.5% or so. The question is...what do you do when a seller is very slow to ship you something. I bought an item on Sunday and paid immediately on Paypal and sent them an e-mail a day or so later since I heard nothing about when the item would be shipped and they still have not responded and its Wednesday. Most sellers will respond to e-mail if not be forthright with when an item will be shipped. What do you guys do in this instance?

Since I have a couple of different things going on with e-bay right now, both of which aren't the best :) I thought I would poll the collective board for experiences as this board is always a wealth of information and real car guys buy and sometimes sell stuff on E-bay :p Believe a good discussion about personal e-bay experiences would probably benefit most.
Thanks for any advice,
George

[bjl4776]

I have had nothing but good things to say about ebay. Every item i have bought I have was sent out within two buisiness days of me paying, and I have even made a few friends with selling items. I always get confused when people talk bad about ebay and won't use it. I have had a friend that purchased three cars on ebay without seeing them and only had a problem with one of them, but was quickly taken care of by ebay. My uncle even recently bought a 2002 M5 off of ebay without any probelm. I guess Iv been lucky, but I don't have any advice to give you because iv never had to deal with dumbass buyers/sellers.

[califblue]

George, from my past experiences 350 + positive feedbacks :p myself for buying & selling.

scenario # 1) Contact him again and tell him after 10 you will re-list the item and leave him negative feedback...he can reply to your feedback but it DOES NOT go against your rating it is only listed and response.

#2) I use the 10 day rule. if he doesn't reply with in 10 days give him one more chance telling him you will report him as a DEAD Beat Seller


my .02 ...hope it helps

[George M]

bj that didn't help a bit :p Seriously, thanks for you comments. I too have had great success on e-bay. I believe in large degree you make your own luck by being wise who you are buying from in particular but if you are selling, you can only preclude a certain segment of buyers so you are somewhat at the mercy of the gods. Deadbeat buyers is very common on e-bay and wondered how those experienced with selling dealt with that scenario which is pretty inevitable. Important thing is technique...you don't want to hurt your feedback in the process.
Thanks anyway,
George

[TheDuke]

I had nothing but good experiences with ebay, most of my items that I bought were shipped quickly and without any problems. I even bought my BMW on ebay. When it goes for expensive stuff I prefer pickup by person not shipping. (I don’t trust UPS, I had a friend working there. He told me few stories about them). I haven’t tried selling yet but soon I’ll try it.

[TheDuke]

State that people with no feedback or negative ones should contact you before bidding. By the way how much does ebay charge for an auction. I’ll be putting my friends 04 Chrysler Crossfire on sale soon, and I’m wondering what fees I should expect. The price gonna be $24K

[632 Regal]

George, on the seller I would give it 10 days cause maybe they just ship out without confirmation emails, that has happened on more than a few occasions.

the buyer, something could have disrupted his life for the moment and again I would be patient and wait at least 7 days for payment. On the 5th day send another email telling him that you will report him to ebay as a deadbeat and leave neg feedback.

That about sums it up.

my 2¢

[George M]

Thanks for your comments Califblue...couple of questions please:

Scenario #1: OK...the deal...after you have done what you suggested...and lets say they decide to pay begrudgingly...can they still ding "you" with bad feedback?...after you threatened them with negative feedback for not paying within the alotted time?

Scenario #2:
Thing that is maddening about buying and the seller is sitting on your item is I have already deposited money into their Paypal account for the item. Frustrating that they would not respond to an e-mail with when they would ship the item. I would think waitng ten days to threaten them with being a dead beat seller may be a bit long to wait...so wondered what the rule of thumb is if there is one.

Thanks CalifBlue...you are a seasoned E-bay vet.
George

[George M]

Good advice Jeff...was curious if there was a general concensus to the above.
Thanks for your input...sound advice.
George

[GaryE]

Ebay is quality me thinks!

Don't forget there is buyer blocks that you can put in place to help deter non paying bidders, take a look here if you haven't already done so: http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?BuyerBlockPreferences (sorry only have an .co.uk link - must be a .com one also!)

I too have bought a car off of ebay. Managed to get a steal of a deal and has made me very happy.

Good luck with your baying ...

Gary

[Kalevera]

George, I've been using eBay since 1999, sold high ticket items and bought almost everything you can imagine on it (including my car). Some thoughts on my experiences:

- Buying car parts (recently) is usually hectic because the people who sell USED car parts are generally not good businesspeople. Case in point: I won two lock actuators on Feb 1, paid the same day, and they have yet to show up. The same seller sold me a dash module for my e34 with a 30 day warranty; the item arrived damaged and now I'm having to go after them because they won't honor the guarantee (eBay seller "foriegnautoimports"). Some deals are really good (buying my front brake kit for $70!). Others suck: Fritz (my car), for instance...who has needed $5000+ worth of work, when the seller said that he needed about $1000.

- The difference between a good experience and a bad one depends on how well the parties communicate. I often do business (not willingly) with people who don't contact me at ALL, even when I've emailed or called them multiple times. There's usually a high correlation between getting a product that is less than what was expected and having little communication.

- Sellers often gouge on shipping/handling costs. Case in point: I bought a set of BMW sport wheels and tires for $650 the other day; the guy wants $20 to pack them into garbage bags for UPS in addition to the actual shipping cost. Have a look at the "harbor freight" type tools...yeah, the price is .99, but the shipping (for a small items) is at least $15 or $20. Sometimes, sellers will mandate that insurance must be included with the shipping and handling (good idea) and then they gouge on that.

- I often am leery of leaving negative feedback for people who DESERVE it, as it usually instigates a retaliatory negative feedback in response (regardless the fact that I've honorably completed my commitment as a buyer or seller), and eBay has no policy of checking that.

- I've had to go after four or five sellers for mis-delivery (either saying that they'd include something in the auction's description and then didnt, or plain old not having the item show up). Specifically related my BMW: aidanm3 and eurocarparts. PayPal is the best way to resolve these issues. Ebay has a worthless customer service department, whereas PayPal's phone support is EXCELLENT; the people who man the phones there really care about the clients.

- I've had two non paying bidders in the ~200 or so sales transactions that I've done. The only thing to do is post a non-paying bidder alert and get a final value fee credit. Luckily, I've always ended up getting MORE for the item the second time around.

Pay for EVERYTHING with PayPal through a credit card. That's two lines of defense (the credit card company and PayPal) if a seller doesn't deliver.

Limit your selling to people with good feedback ratings, or who contact you prior to making a bid, to ensure that your items actually go.

best, whit

[Brian C.]

And I say 3 cts. because I've got a 95 Feedback Rating and it's at 100% too. So maybe that makes me a somewhat savy E-Bay-er....maybe not, but here goes.

I've found that it's not too easy to find others in a transaction that operate the way I do. I sort of have a "Golden Rule" when it comes to the way I do things.

First of all....I am almost ALWAYS at my PC the moment an auction I'm participating in....either buying or selling....ends. Either to see if I have to snipe (heh-heh) someone to win, or to see how much $$$ I'm due. And immediately after, I contact the other party. And if I've won something, I usually also immediately pay by PayPal. Actually, I guess I usually pay first then contact them telling them that I've paid in full. I've gotten so that I only want to buy and sell with PayPal. It just seems easiest all around.

Secondly....I think that Caveat Emptor cannot be stressed more. Know who you are buying from and who has bid on your items. As much as you can at least. I go over the feedbacks of anyone who puts a bid in on one of my items. And I then go to people who may have purchased from them and so on. I once told a guy, 3 days before the auction ended, who had 6 negatives, to forget bidding because I wasn't going to sell it to him. He dropped his bid on my $30 item.

Thirdly....Don't expect others to be as dilligent as you and I. Many sellers are the kind who only check their e-mail a couple of times a week. Others will only ship items on Mondays or only on Thursdays or whatever. If I have an item to sell, it's boxed and 95% ready to go BEFORE the auction ends so I can get it in the mail as soon as my PayPal $$$ comes through. The next morning usually. And then there's some buyers who want to make "a deal" after the auction ends. My "deal" is that if they pay in full first, then I ship it. Period.

Fourthly....Feedback. I will leave feedback for the other person as soon as I receive and am happy with an item, or as soon as the other person pays me. I've had to "hound" some people into asking them if...perhaps...they've "forgotten" to leave me positive feedback, as I've already done for them. Sometimes twice. If nothing comes of it, well...nutz for me, but that E-Bay-er is then on my **** list forever. I've never done anything that I think any other reputable E-Bay-er could consider cause for a negative feedback. As yee sew the wind....so shall yee reap the whirlwind...so to speak.

I've bought maybe 100 things and sold about 15 so I'm no Power Seller or anything, but I look at it as MY RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that my transaction goes smoothly. If the other guy has a problem I try to make it right. If they refuse to follow the rules of "Good E-Citizenship", well then f**k-em! I can sleep at night. I've never had to report anyone...yet...and maybe it's because I try to follow the rules.....as I wish everyone else would do.

Good Luck George.....
Brian C.

[Garlic Breath]

I have a personal account and a business account. For my personal account I only pay with the Paypal but with the business account I only send money orders, because we cannot link the paypal system to a 250,000 checking account and I cannot create a seperate business account. Whenever I see someone only accepting Paypal I email them and then they see my feedback and let me bid. I really don't understand why people limit to Paypal only. You're cutting out a bunch of people who could possibly bid. #2 Don't restrict your selling to the 48 states. If its light under 20# open it up to international bidders. My best customers come from overseas and they pay with money order or western union. No paypal fees! Sure its a pain going to the Post office but you can print your international labels at home and it fills out the customs stuff too. You then just go into the PO and drop it off.


Oh yeah, I bought my 525 off of ebay from a guy in Miami. I will never buy another car from a dealer again. It will only be ebay or autotrader.



As far as getting the non paying squared away there are a few steps.

Click here for help (http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/unpaid-item-process.html)

[George M]

Wonderful insight guys...keep it coming...a lot of wisdom being dispensed here...what I was hoping for. Will let more comments come and then make comments or pose more questions. There have been several excellent points made. In particular want to focus on how to preserve your feedback if having the unfavorable task of calling people out for being either dead beat buyers or sellers...believe that is where the art is.
Many Thanks,
George

[bahnstormer]

i've bought 3 cars from ebay
89 325i
90 535i
01 ML55

the experience was fairly smooth.
the 325 i bought in georgia, and
drove down to look at it...the condition
was much worse than described and
pictured so i haggled on the price
i had already put a down payment,
and agreed with the buyer to hand deliver
the rest...

the 535 was local in state so i looked at
it before bidding

the ml55 we had shipped and it was a fairly
decent experience, very little support or
feedback after the sale from the PO but
w/e it was still on warranty.

[Dick Schneiders]

near 400 feedback rating, I do have a couple of thoughts.

I certainly would not give the buyer negative feedback, if your 100% rating is important to you. Yes, the buyer deserves the negative feedback, but I would say it is almost a sure thing that he will turn around and give you a negative feedback rating, out of spite. I have *ONE* negative and that is a result of exactly what you are describing. I gave a neutral, not even a negative, to a real "dick" :) , and got a *negative* in return, even though I was totally innocent of any wrong doing. This is one area that I feel eBay can be a problem. This was early in my eBaying, and the negative really bothered me. I contacted eBay, but they really only had my word and couldn't do anything.

I would send one final email to the buyer, stating that he is beyond your stipulated requirements, and that you are going to relist the item if you don't hear from him. You should give anybody the benefit of the doubt - they could have been called away on some emergency, or something. Since you can relist the item at no cost, hopefully you will sell it the second time. Ebay used to have a form you could fill out on their site mentioning a non-paying buyer, and they would usually refund you the listing charge for the item. I don't know how expensive this item was, but that is probably nominal.

The second situation is a bit more troubling. I have only been stiffed once on my many eBay purchases, and that was only for $20 or so. The seller simply dropped out of sight and never again used eBay under that id again. Perhaps that $20 was enough for him to retire on and move to the South Pacific! I have had a few, but really very few, sellers take a long time to send me my item. I do what you have done, by contacting them and asking for the ship date, etc. However, I am fairly patient and will usually wait for several days before contacting them again, if I didn't hear from them. Often the item will arrive before I decide to email them again. If I do have to email them another time, I will make up some excuse so as not to piss them off too much and embarrass them. I say something like, "I am going out of town for a couple of weeks and really need to have some idea when the time will arrive so I can figure out how to receive it". I am very direct and serious, but always stop way short of accusing the seller of anything, even laziness.

I don't recall ever having any seller not respond, finally, and almost always they are very apologetic and have some lame excuse, but I do get told a shipping date and the item does arrive. This happens so rarely, as I also am very careful about who I buy stuff from, that I am always surprised when it does. Some sellers are very big eBay operators, and are trying to do it all themself, so they do get spread a bit thin.

Again, I will always try to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, when they are slow in shipping an item, and try to stay patient. Sometimes that is difficult, and when that happens, I don't give a negative, but just don't give any feedback at all. There have only been 4 or 5 times when I felt like giving a less than glowing feedback, and because of my earlier situation when I got a negative, I just forget about it.

I don't know if this helps in any way, but I am very cautious about using feedback to get back at bad sellers/buyers. I have contacted eBay a few times about suspicious activities, and I know if they get enough complaints they will ban a person.

Dick Schneiders



Hey Gang,
Since most of us by now have bought and sold on E-bay, thought I would ask how most respond to a couple of different scenarios and what the result has been. Want to say, I have been pretty lucky overall and the E-bay system seems pretty solid but have a question about both buying and selling.

Selling: Have a item I sold recently and the buyer who won the auction hasn't paid. I sell only to people in the US and only accept Paypal. I stipulate on my description that if payment isn't made in 3 days, buyer will forfeit item and I will relist. That is where I am at as I write this. I have sent of course an invoice and follow up e-mail requesting payment and would ship immediately upon payment...yada yada...no response and no payment. What do you guys do at this point? Do you contact E-bay...if so how? The single most important thing to me is my feedback which is 100% and want to protect this at all costs. I don't want a disgruntled dead beat buyer to ding my feedback if I take them to task for not paying. How long should I wait?...any advice?

Second scenario:
Buying: By and large I have had great experience buying stuff on e-bay. Of course it is incumbent upon the buyer to purchase from reputable sellers with good feedback...I avoid those with less than 98.5% or so. The question is...what do you do when a seller is very slow to ship you something. I bought an item on Sunday and paid immediately on Paypal and sent them an e-mail a day or so later since I heard nothing about when the item would be shipped and they still have not responded and its Wednesday. Most sellers will respond to e-mail if not be forthright with when an item will be shipped. What do you guys do in this instance?

Since I have a couple of different things going on with e-bay right now, both of which aren't the best :) I thought I would poll the collective board for experiences as this board is always a wealth of information and real car guys buy and sometimes sell stuff on E-bay :p Believe a good discussion about personal e-bay experiences would probably benefit most.
Thanks for any advice,
George

[Dick Schneiders]

to retailiate.


George, from my past experiences 350 + positive feedbacks :p myself for buying & selling.

scenario # 1) Contact him again and tell him after 10 you will re-list the item and leave him negative feedback...he can reply to your feedback but it DOES NOT go against your rating it is only listed and response.

#2) I use the 10 day rule. if he doesn't reply with in 10 days give him one more chance telling him you will report him as a DEAD Beat Seller


my .02 ...hope it helps

[Astroboy]

[QUOTE=George M]Hey Gang,

Selling: Have a item I sold recently and the buyer who won the auction hasn't paid. I sell only to people in the US and only accept Paypal. I stipulate on my description that if payment isn't made in 3 days, buyer will forfeit item and I will relist. That is where I am at as I write this. I have sent of course an invoice and follow up e-mail requesting payment and would ship immediately upon payment...yada yada...no response and no payment. What do you guys do at this point? Do you contact E-bay...if so how? The single most important thing to me is my feedback which is 100% and want to protect this at all costs. I don't want a disgruntled dead beat buyer to ding my feedback if I take them to task for not paying. How long should I wait?...any advice?

Second scenario:
Buying: By and large I have had great experience buying stuff on e-bay. Of course it is incumbent upon the buyer to purchase from reputable sellers with good feedback...I avoid those with less than 98.5% or so. The question is...what do you do when a seller is very slow to ship you something. I bought an item on Sunday and paid immediately on Paypal and sent them an e-mail a day or so later since I heard nothing about when the item would be shipped and they still have not responded and its Wednesday. Most sellers will respond to e-mail if not be forthright with when an item will be shipped. What do you guys do in this instance?

Hi George,
SCENARIO #1: Ebay has what is called a Final Value Credit Fee" it is reimbursement of fees for the listing when a buyer does not follow through with payment. In order to claim this reimbursement, the seller needs to follow the Unpaid Item Process. Within this process, ebay recommends waiting up to seven days for payment before filing a claim. So this being the case, I guess 7 days would be the standard. Once you begin the process, ebay sends the buyer a "friendly notice" with a seven (7) day expiration. Once the 7 days expires, you are entitled to claim reimbursement. If I am not mistaken, ebay silently dings the buyer for this non-payment issue and takes action against the buyer after x number of non payment filings by sellers. Filing false claims by sellers also comes with penalty.

Here is a link from ebay for additional information and elaboration:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/unpaid-item-process.html

The decision to leave negative feedback is a touchy one. You always stand the chance of receiving retaliatory feedback which is very counter-productive to your future selling endeavors on ebay. I have put that option on the back burner and use the quiet/subtle ebay tracking of non-paying bidders through the claim of "Final Value Credit Fees"

SCEANARIO 2: I definitely have been there, playing the waiting game. A good indicator of response time is checking how many auction listings this seller actually has going on at one time. Many times, sellers are swamped and fall behind on the courtesy/proper business practice of standard communcation. If the seller has a lot of auctions going and it is a home-part-time business set-up, the seller may not be keeping up as promptly as they should. (Their greedy eyes are bigger than their energy to fulfill the transaction in a timely manner)

Hope that helps, please feel free to ask me to clarify if you wish!
Astroboy

[George M]

great responses guys...first a funny story...

Scenario no.2....my latest buying scenario ...has changed for the good. I tried to dig into the seller's profile a bit when he wouldn't respond to my e-mails. I mentioned as a rule I only buy from someone with above 98.5% positive feedback and this seller had a 99.5 feedback rating. And BTW Brian, you and I are so much alike...you are principled man and so am I. In this world we live though not all see through the same prism as you correctly stated. Maneuvering through E-bay as I see it is a bit of a chess game in that the object is to buy and sell and maintain a nice blemish free rating if possible. Sometimes, I believe this means losing the battle to win the war so to speak. Anyway...you will like this. So I tried to find out what this guy's background was a bit and as another rule as also mentioned, I normally trade a couple of e-mails at the beginning of the auction as others do and ask a couple of questions to make sure the guy is on the up and up and firing on all cylinders. He alluded that he was a business which provided further peace of mind. So I checked his PayPal payment and sure enough his Paypal name was his business name and not his e-bay handle...hehe. So I went onto the web with his company name and address listed on e-bay and sure enough he had a web site with an out of state phone no. So I called the guy :p and represented who I was and simply wanted to know when I would be receiving my package...lol. Got a bit of stammering and the guy said that his partner who handled the e-bay transactions wasn't available and to call back a bit later....which I did. Short story long, the company within about 5 hours or so, sent me an e-mail with tracking information as requested. I wrote back that I greatly appreciated it and would reciprocate with positive feedback upon receipt of the item.

OK...on to Scenario no. 1...contending with a dead beat buyer, as mentioned an altogether common occurence due to the fickle nature of people after they pull the trigger on something when the heat of battle (bidding) subsides...and realize they have won something they didn't really want or were just plain dumb or both. As a sidebar when dealing with the public, never lose sight of half the people you meet in life have a below average I.Q....and definitely keep this in mind when you are out on the roads mixing it up ;)
The reoccurring theme I hear from your responses is you have to tread very carefully when handing out bad feedback due to a likely and undeserved retaliatory strike. I completely agree...a very slippery slope and why I posed the question initially. What I have learned based upon your input is and would appreciate confirmation on...after 7 days, one should submit an Unpaid Item dispute with e-bay as Astroboy described below.
Here is the interesting part about Feedback after filing per e-bay's language in their link:
Note:
Feedback and Unpaid Items:

Buyers and sellers may leave feedback for each other on transactions involving Unpaid Items even if there was a mutual agreement not to complete the transaction. eBay encourages all users to leave appropriate feedback about their trading partners.
Unpaid Item strikes do not affect a user's feedback score or member profile.
My interpretation is...and those with experience please confirm, once you file for an Unpaid Item dispute even though there is resolution, say an unbalanced buyer who has felt their feet held to the fire to pay can still leave negative feedback. Also, the number of times previously they have been deadbeat is undisclosed to the e-bay community...not right. My personal take is this is a flaw in E-bay's system. I also believe the language above is a bit unclear. What do you guys think? Last thing is...maybe...just maybe to avoid any negative feedback, one should simply relist the item after 7 days without filing anything against the dillenquent buyer. This may be the way to go to avoid any messiness and needless dinging of your Feedback rating...comments? Only downside is I presume you would have to pay to relist the item as it were intially...can someone confirm this? If an item doesn't sell, one must always pay to relist?...all my previous items have always sold the first time.

Finally would say as in all of life there is a bit of irony in E-bay....no such thing as a perfect system. As I see it the Feedback ratings on people are simply inaccurate and not a good gage of doing business with someone...only a crude yardstick. The reason is...take Brian for example...as responsible as the day is long which also fits with his line of work and who has a less than perfect Feedback score "because he has spoken out against indescretions he has experienced with e-bay". I wonder about the buyer I have currently who hasn't paid. I wonder in light of a good Feedback score how many times that person hasn't paid and how many undisclosed strikes are held against him...but Feedback score hasn't been appropriately dinged for not paying...in effect gotten away with it for exactly the reasons described above...just isn't worth it to call a spade a spade.
Thanks for any further comments,
George

[granit_silber]

As I have just been sniped by some butthole, I'm a little put out with the whole Ebay system right now. I'm also not very active on Ebay so take it for what's it's worth.

I say screw the 100% rating. Let the deadbeat leave you feedback, you have an opportunity to respond that shows up right beneath their comments.


I can tell you that if I were a seller I would care less about my % and more about the content of my feedback profile. But I'm not you and 100% is awesome!

If I read that a seller had a 98.5% rating and in looking through feedback I could see that the negatives were from people who didn't pay up, I would bid with confidence as the feedback says the seller was a person of principle.

I reckon that it doesn't matter though cause I'm such a non-power ebayer that we'd have to e-mail before you accept my bid anyway (acyre). :D

George, I'm sorry if this is a little rant-y. I'm really ticked about the way my last auction went down. 1992 5 series sales stuff including the price list. I was the only bidder for a week, 10 seconds before the auction ends some @#(#$#$ comes in and rips me off.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.
-ashley

[George M]

Hi Ashley,
Its OK to rant...what the board is for ;)
Bidding is both fun and frustrating if you lose out on what you really want. I find if I want something bad, I put a max. bid out there that eclipses any of the posers. I too have come in with a few seconds left and stole an item...pretty common fare on e-bay.
Again...you have to bring a gun to a knife fight if you really want something. I go high with my maximum bid to stave off lightweights and usually end up winning the auction just above what the previous offer was. Have to admit, I have been beaten as most have. If you really want something though you have to be prepared to go high and many times you will be rewarded by locking out your competitors because they haven't bid above your maximum bid. If they take it by going over what you are willing to pay, i.e. your maximum bid...so what...you were going to pay a premium anyway.
Lets hear some more about the Feedback dance...what do you guys think?...let the auction go and not fight a deadbeat buyer?...simply relist after 7 days or file an Unpaid action dispute and risk getting dinged with bad feedback from a pressured deadbeat buyer?
George

[Mitch90535im]

I say screw the 100% rating. Let the deadbeat leave you feedback, you have an opportunity to respond that shows up right beneath their comments.

-ashley


I agree - you're putting way too much emphasis on maintaining that 100% positive feedback rating George. I buy from folks with less than perfect feedback fairly often. I read the negative feedback, the buyer/seller's response to that negative feedback, then make an informed decision. Nine times out of ten times the negative feedback is nothing more than retailation to "earned/deserved" negative feedback.

[Dick Schneiders]

but they used to allow one relisting of an *unsold* item for free. However, since this item was sold, at least so it would seem to eBay, this might not be available unless you file the non-responsive buyer report. I would file the report, even though it is a bit of a hassle, and then it will be in eBay's records that you never got paid.

Dick

[Dick Schneiders]

love about eBay. We all want to buy something for the best possible price, and "sniping" is the way to do it. Why should I let everybody know that I am interested in an item and put in my highest dollar amount up front so that everybody has a week to bump up my bid? One thing I do not do, is use one of the sniping programs that are out there to do it for me. I will be there watching the clock, even at 3 am, and push the button myself. I love the rush and the knowledge that it is all or nothing. Usually there are several other bidders doing the same thing, and so I never know quite how much the final price will be. It is so pleasing when I can win an item for way less than I would have paid.

If you wanted the item badly enough, and if you really are against sniping, then you should bid enough ahead of time to win the item and not just barely top the previous high bid or the minimum. You are also trying to win the item for the least amount of money, by doing this, but you are not giving yourself much of a chance to win the item.

I always laugh when I see somebody bid ten times in a row, barely raising his previous bid, until he finally gets to be the current top bidder. Those people rarely ever win the items, at least not the ones I am bidding on.

I hope I never snipe an item you are trying to win, because I would hate to think you were this angry at me. :-)

Dick Schneiders



As I have just been sniped by some butthole, I'm a little put out with the whole Ebay system right now. I'm also not very active on Ebay so take it for what's it's worth.

I say screw the 100% rating. Let the deadbeat leave you feedback, you have an opportunity to respond that shows up right beneath their comments.


I can tell you that if I were a seller I would care less about my % and more about the content of my feedback profile. But I'm not you and 100% is awesome!

If I read that a seller had a 98.5% rating and in looking through feedback I could see that the negatives were from people who didn't pay up, I would bid with confidence as the feedback says the seller was a person of principle.

I reckon that it doesn't matter though cause I'm such a non-power ebayer that we'd have to e-mail before you accept my bid anyway (acyre). :D

George, I'm sorry if this is a little rant-y. I'm really ticked about the way my last auction went down. 1992 5 series sales stuff including the price list. I was the only bidder for a week, 10 seconds before the auction ends some @#(#$#$ comes in and rips me off.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.
-ashley

[Kalevera]

George, I would go after deadbeat SELLERS, but not deadbeat BUYERS.

For me, the costs don't outweigh the benefits of going after a buyer. Obviously, they don't want or can't have (for some reason) the item...why try to force it on them? Easier just to relist, get the final value fee back, and forget about the feedback altogether. Plus, if a user is a serial non-payer, getting two UPID's in one month, I think, will get them kicked off of the system.

As with my recent activity, I usually get screwed by sellers who take my money and then don't ship, or ship to the wrong address (apparently, having a PO Box for USPS and a physical address for UPS/DHL/FedEx is *really hard* for sellers to figure out) and then don't bother resending the item or contacting me. Hence my recent claims with PayPal against aforementioned "ForiegnAutoImports" for both delivery of broken/non-functional goods and non-delivery on a few lock actuators. In this case, I *will* leave negative feedback unless the seller starts doing something VERY soon...like calling me back or responding to emails.

Best, whit

[Kalevera]

Oh, and the other bit of healthy advice I like to give on sniping and placing bids:

Bid an amount that others are unlikely to use as a "limit". I.E., another buyer may think, "This is worth $20 to me" and bid that way, even at the last second. If you've bid $20.73, you still win. Just another way of playing the psychological battle.

If I really want something, I'll be at my computer hitting refresh (in Mozilla - the fastest browser there is) every few seconds. Having a low latency connection really helps with this, and unlike in other parts of the country, the Adelphia cable service that I get here in North Carolina is actually quite good. Sometimes I have to resnipe the item with <10 seconds to go, and I wouldn't be winning without the fast connection :)

[granit_silber]

[QUOTE=

I hope I never snipe an item you are trying to win, because I would hate to think you were this angry at me. :-)

Dick Schneiders[/QUOTE]
Dick,

Thanks for injecting some humor into the fray.

I usually do wait longer into the auction bid, when I do bid I do put in the maximum I will pay. This auctionwas for a sale brochure and price list for my car. I wasn't going to be forced into paying tons o' money for it.

I have heard that sometimes if an article is selling for less than the seller wants, they will log on under a different screen name and bump the price or take over an auction so they can re-list it.

anyway, thanks again. I guess if I can't beat 'em, I'll have to join 'em. :)
-ashley

[granit_silber]

unlike in other parts of the country, the Adelphia cable service that I get here in North Carolina is actually quite good. :)

Where in NC?

Last time I heard Aldelphia I was in Raleigh. I'm in Winston-Salem.
-ashley

[byurko]

George,

I have run into buyers not paying before... The best thing to do is to get their contact info and give them a call. You can request another user's contact information if they have won your auction. http://cgi1.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?UserInformationRequest - This also works for seller info.

I've had a couple people that weren't getting emails from eBay b/c their eBay email hadn't been updated - If their phone number is invalid, then that's a different story.

If you file a NPB (non-paying bidder) alert, they will get a strike against them. Three NPB strikes and the account is permanently suspended! If the buyer does not follow your terms, you can also file a complaint - ie. No International Bidders.

I hope this helps...

[Kalevera]

Ashley - I'm about 30 minutes north of charlotte on 77 -- I live outside of Davidson. Apparently, Time Warner services pretty much every other cable network in the area except the one I'm on. Up until this month, I got a great deal on access from Adelphia, too - $25/month. Back in Cleveland, I use SBC/Yahoo's DSL service, which is great as well (at $27/month) but the latency is much worse. And Adelphia's service in the area is horrible.

best, whit

[Dick Schneiders]

even call your first effort a snipe, with that much time left. :-) If I don't hit the time within the last 3 or 4 seconds, on my first bid, I am disappointed at my lack of coordination. Where is the thrill and excitement, if you have the time to bid again?

You are certainly correct in your advice about bidding odd amounts. I always bid some uneven dollar amount, like what you showed, and it is very helpful in winning close "contests". What I usually do is decide what my theoretical maximum will be on an item. I then determine what the eBay minimum bid interval is at that amount, and add one interval to my max. I then add some pennies to that, like the 73 cents in your example, to arrive at my final bid. The reason for adding the eBay bid interval is because I have lost items, before doing this, when some other sniper got a bid in before me (not difficult since I wait until the last second) and bid about the same as I did. Since his bid was already in the system, when my bid didn't cover the eBay minimum interval over his, then my bid was simply rejected and never was counted, even though it was slightly more than the winning bidder.

Great fun and game, boys and girls.

Dick Schneiders




Oh, and the other bit of healthy advice I like to give on sniping and placing bids:

Bid an amount that others are unlikely to use as a "limit". I.E., another buyer may think, "This is worth $20 to me" and bid that way, even at the last second. If you've bid $20.73, you still win. Just another way of playing the psychological battle.

If I really want something, I'll be at my computer hitting refresh (in Mozilla - the fastest browser there is) every few seconds. Having a low latency connection really helps with this, and unlike in other parts of the country, the Adelphia cable service that I get here in North Carolina is actually quite good. Sometimes I have to resnipe the item with <10 seconds to go, and I wouldn't be winning without the fast connection :)

[George M]

I hope this thread has been as informative to everyone as it has to me. I have learned a great deal. Byurko...a great nugget of info...I have requested contact information and will likely give the deadbeat buyer a call and see if they legitimately want the item...if their computer is down or whatever lame excuse they can come up with spur of the moment if confronted on the phone :p Have to say, reading all the above even though the seemingly right thing is to report the dead beat buyer, I tend to agree with lowell in that...why be a dead hero? In other words why risk getting dinged just to purge one of likely 100,000 dead beat buyers on e-bay...let someone else take the hit to their Feedback by doing the right thing. Just a thought.
Question goes out to you lowell...what is the procedure for relisting an item if someone has already won it and hasn't paid? I am not sure how to do that.
Further, will I be charged a relisting fee for putting the item back up on auction if I don't report the deadbeat buyer to E-bay? Lowell, wonder if you could walk me through a simple relisting if I have a buyer that has commited to buy the item but just hasn't paid...where I am at right now.
Thanks to all,
George

[Kalevera]

George, it's a two step process.

The first step is to file the unpaid item alert (or whatever it's called these days - they change the name of "the process" occasionally). If you haven't done this already: I can never remember the exact way to get to it, so I go to the help section and type in "unpaid item alert" and it will give you a bunch of results, one of which will be the form to take care of that process. Once you've got that initiated, you'll be on your way to getting the final value fee back.

Second step is to go to My eBay -> Selling. Once there, find the lineitem for the auction to be relisted. Depending on how the view is configured, you'll either have a "relist" button, or a blue/grey drop down arrow that will give you the option to relist. Click on that and follow the directions. Easy as pie.

Speak of the devil, I just got sniped for an auto dimming mirror because I was reading the forums - $3.26!!


best, whit

[SharkmanBMW]

I sell and buy off ebay... I have been ripped off purposely by 2 dirtbags selling satellite equipment - one who just never shipped $250 worth of goods and another shipping the wrong product.

I could leave bad feedback but I know they will do the same.... not worth it.
I sell a lot and always contact buyers immediately but that is me!
Give your buyer 7 days, then report him as a non paying bidder (go to Site Map under buying & selling... Report an unpaid item)

give your seller 3 days then email for an update...

most people mean well but **** happens to us all!

[Brian C.]

....WOW!, there's a first, huh Mitch?! :p (LOL!)

About not worrying too much about receiving a negative feeback that is. When I start doing a little "background" on a prospective buyer or seller, I'll look at their feedback first. I'll of course look to see if they've gotten any negatives and what their responses might be. Then I'll go to the feedback of the person who LEFT THEM the negative and check out that guy's feedbacks. Both their one's left and received.

Now follow me here.....if the person who left my prospective buyer a negative feedback seems to be a fairly up-and-up sort of person, one who rarely leaves or gets negatives and has other "glowing thank you's", it'll tell you that maybe my buyer had it coming. But if the guy often has left negatives or gets short positives like..."Got it."...or maybe a few neutrals then one might be able to deduce that he's a crank that can't ever be pleased. My buyer shouldn't be liable for other cranky people, if he's reputable. Nor should I.

Or maybe he has some bogus buys to pad his rating numbers. Someone who has 100%, but most of them are for items for a few dollars, might be trying to establish a false "positive" ID and then try to whack someone with a big buy or sale. I happen to have a 100% rating, but I'm not affraid to spank some jerk who won't play nice. I can explain myself, can he? Afterall, feedback is only as good as it's source, right?? ;)

This is where I go back to my Caveat Emptor attitude. I'm doing E-Bay as a fun thing, not as a business or to make a lot of money or to buy and sell a ton of stuff. Many people do. Me, I have time to check things out to my satisfaction. I don't NEED to buy or sell anything so after I've done my work, any problems that may arise I consider my fault and just put if off to experience.

Brian C.

[Incantation]

ebay is great.. i only have one thing to say. make sure the seller has a good rating. and make sure you DO NOT pay with money order.. it's a pain in the ass

[George M]

I think lowell you are modifying your view...or perhaps you always believed in e-bay's Uppaid Item Dispute procedure which will leave you open to negative feedback...even unprovoked. The consensus among those that have responded is a resounding "so what" ...file the claim against the dead beat buyer...and give them their just deserts. I guess you are right. The other theme I hear is one of communication....important...and to give the benefit of the doubt initally. Will share what most know exists out there in cyberspace. I took a cue from Byurko and gained contact info on my dead beat buyer and called him yesterday afternoon to find out what gives. The guy is from Texas whose name is unpronouncable and can barely speak the language...you connect the dots :( and said his wife pulled the trigger on the auction and is still interested in the item. That's what you are dealing with brothers and sisters. Will see. He said he would speak to his wife and get me paid. With paypal all you need to do is hit a button. Nothing yet. All told, I think I will wait a full seven days and file the Unpaid Item Dispute as all recommend. May not come to that but this whole thing is needless and a waste of time....lol. It ain't close to an even playing field out there...most can't wait to receive an item and others likely have a hard time turning on their computer. I learned a long time ago to never get into a pissing contest with a moron...you will be the loser....hence why I wanted to avoid filing any action even though the proper thing to do, you will end up being dead right based upon e-bay's current system which should absolutely preclude any negative feedback from a deadbeat party which it doesn't. I would prefer to deny this item from the deadbeat party and relist it on my nickel. I received a couple of e-mails from other parties earlier that really wanted it...too bad.
Thanks to all for their advice,
George

[Bill R.]

100% positive feedback and I have one back feedback on my record because i gave bad feedback to some dirtbag that took a couple of months to send a computer part when i paid for it right away and I phoned their business the same day the auction was over to verify that the part was in stock so that i could expect it shipped right away.. Anyway after a very long wait i gave him a bad feedback and he promptly did the same to me claiming that i took forever to pay...which was a lie of course. Needless to say i ended up with one bad feedback that bothers me.. Its really a non issue but when i see people with hundreds of positives and not a single bad I figure thats the kind of seller i want to deal with.. so I would do as your doing and wait on posting any feedback just yet..













I think lowell you are modifying your view...or perhaps you always believed in e-bay's Uppaid Item Dispute procedure which will leave you open to negative feedback...even unprovoked. The consensus among those that have responded is a resounding "so what" ...file the claim against the dead beat buyer...and give them their just deserts. I guess you are right. The other theme I hear is one of communication....important...and to give the benefit of the doubt initally. Will share what most know exists out there in cyberspace. I took a cue from Byurko and gained contact info on my dead beat buyer and called him yesterday afternoon to find out what gives. The guy is from Texas whose name is unpronouncable and can barely speak the language...you connect the dots :( and said his wife pulled the trigger on the auction and is still interested in the item. That's what you are dealing with brothers and sisters. Will see. He said he would speak to his wife and get me paid. With paypal all you need to do is hit a button. Nothing yet. All told, I think I will wait a full seven days and file the Unpaid Item Dispute as all recommend. May not come to that but this whole thing is needless and a waste of time....lol. It ain't close to an even playing field out there...most can't wait to receive an item and others likely have a hard time turning on their computer. I learned a long time ago to never get into a pissing contest with a moron...you will be the loser....hence why I wanted to avoid filing any action even though the proper thing to do, you will end up being dead right based upon e-bay's current system which should absolutely preclude any negative feedback from a deadbeat party which it doesn't. I would prefer to deny this item from the deadbeat party and relist it on my nickel. I received a couple of e-mails from other parties earlier that really wanted it...too bad.
Thanks to all for their advice,
George

[George M]

Thanks Bill,
The thing that is a bit unsettling is how negative feedback can be left by a deadbeat buyer after not paying for an item and having an Unpaid Item Dispute filed against him.
Not equitable of course. How would any deadbeat buyer respond to having the threat of an unpaid strike be filed against him?...not too objectively of course. By filing such a claim, you are only setting yourself up to be hit with bad feedback. And as most know, a guy like that isn't a real critical thinker to begin with...lol...so he will follow one mistake with another as most people do with poor judgement as they crash and burn. And so it goes. When you sell stuff on the open market in this format you are subject to the rules and your challenge is to interpret the rules and try to maneuver around all the unscrupulous goofs out there...kind of like avoiding bad drivers.
That really sucks about that computer part.
George

[Kalevera]

George, in re-reading what I've written in past posts, you are corect -- I never mentioned calling the other party because I noted that the advice had already been offered, and I do it so often that it's a normal practice for me. Getting the user's contact information is my first course of action because I much more prefer to talk to somebody on the phone than send them an email. However, I find that calling "delinquent" sellers or buyers while employing a very friendly and non-accusatory tone ("I haven't heard anything and wanted to know how things were going with this auction") usually doesn't get me very far (suprise!). So I wait a few more days, leave a message on voicemail, send another email, and then resort to the UPID (in the case of a defaulting buyer).

This is a brutally obvious point, and I as well as others have made it numerous times before, but - communication is key. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

The only functionality I find in ebay's unpaid item system is the ability to get the final value fee back. I used to sell a lot of moderately expensive IT equpiment, and the final value fee on a $700 item isn't something that's fun to just eat.

So yes, anyone and everyone - call your sellers and buyers before you do anything else! :)

best, whit

[George M]

Thanks for your further comments Lowell...I guess the only thing I may do a bit different is I would not be quite as vigilant as far as follow up...no repeated calls etc after making the initial follow up call....not going to get you anywhere.
Give them one more try and a follow up e-mail and then move on. Do have a further question...lets say after 7 days elapses and no payment. Can I rightfully relist the item on my nickel?...without any reprissal from say a deadbeat buy who all of a sudden wants to purchase my item after 7 days and after I have relisted? The way I see it is...its a balance. Right with you on the expensive items...would be a heavier cost hit to relist..but on cheap stuff...may be worth the extra dime to side step the dirtbag buyer and simply relist without filing the Unpaid Claim and getting inevitably dinged with bad feedback.
Do you know?
Thanks,
George

[Dick Schneiders]

claim with eBay, and it is approved, then you can relist the item with no additional charge, and also the deadbeat buyer cannot leave you any feedback at all, as that sale is null and void. You aren't actually giving any negative feedback, or any at all, to the buyer so he also won't know to ding you back. After a number of these sorts of complaints, eBay will contact or ban the deadbeat buyer, but I don't think they tell them who filed the complaints. The danger is in when you do not file the report to get your listing fees refunded, and also give the buyer negative feedback. In that instance, the sale was still a completed transaction, in eBay's eyes, and the deadbeat buyer can (and will) give you retaliatory negative feedback.

Dick Schneiders


Thanks for your further comments Lowell...I guess the only thing I may do a bit different is I would not be quite as vigilant as far as follow up...no repeated calls etc after making the initial follow up call....not going to get you anywhere.
Give them one more try and a follow up e-mail and then move on. Do have a further question...lets say after 7 days elapses and no payment. Can I rightfully relist the item on my nickel?...without any reprissal from say a deadbeat buy who all of a sudden wants to purchase my item after 7 days and after I have relisted? The way I see it is...its a balance. Right with you on the expensive items...would be a heavier cost hit to relist..but on cheap stuff...may be worth the extra dime to side step the dirtbag buyer and simply relist without filing the Unpaid Claim and getting inevitably dinged with bad feedback.
Do you know?
Thanks,
George

[George M]

Hi Dick,
Believe there are two scenarios and I wish someone that knew for sure would weigh in. Believe there is the scenario as you describe. But also quite certain, the first step when filing an Upaid claim is initially E-bay blocks the buyer from participating from further E-bay activity in an effort to get him to pay...honor his contract if you will. A buyer can then decide to pay (under pressure by E-bay) or take the strike...and after all done if he unwillingly pays, since the sale is still valid, can still go in and ding you after all is said and done. I would prefer to stage left from an unwilling buyer of this nature because I believe that is exactly what would happen...the buyer would buy the item under pressure and then leave negative feedback. Dick...its kind of like making a citizen's arrest out on the freeway. E-bay is like a buying freeway full of both good and bad people...just like the roads. What do you normally do when you see a bad driver?...try to turn them in? Of course e-bay encourages people to do this because it ultimately generates more revenue for them...in other words their system is self policing. As a citizen however you have to consider what your downside is for doing the right thing.
My thoughts,
George

[Dick Schneiders]

Not really, but have been glad I don't carry a gun in the car on a number of occasions.

Yes, I really don't know for certain, George, because I haven't been an active seller on eBay for a couple of years or more, just an avid buyer. I seem to do that a lot better. ;) When I was selling a lot of stuff, the process was a lot simpler, and they have made many changes since then. Certainly the system is probably better, just much more complicated, and I haven't felt compelled to learn it all yet.

Dick


Hi Dick,
Dick...its kind of like making a citizen's arrest out on the freeway. E-bay is like a buying freeway full of both good and bad people...just like the roads. What do you normally do when you see a bad driver?...try to turn them in? George

[George M]

I'm with you brother...a more practiced buyer than seller :-) And know what you mean about carrying a gun out on the road..lol. There is another option which I may choose which is called a second chance option which allows the next lowest bidder an opportunity to buy. I may pursue this versus relist the item. Believe this forecloses the idiot that won't pay from buying and therefore leaving feedback. I have experienced this on the buying end. I bought a bike frame this way...deadbeat winner of the auction couldn't or wouldn't pay and I got another shot at the auction buying at my lower bid price. If you wonder why people include the verbage, don't bid if you can't pay in their description...its because this happens a lot on e-bay. Lots of people pull the trigger and an altogether large subset don't follow through and do the right thing.
George

[Kalevera]

Haha. Yes, I think Dick's got it right on this...Relisting due to a deadbeat bidder has always been free for me -- just have to step through the associated bureaucratic processes. best, whit

[George M]

...not sure what you mean Lowell...so far nobody has got it right. I thought there may be a real cagey E-bay vet on here that really knew the system.
I found the answer after a lot of digging on the web. If you are an e-bay junkie and like to play, best to know the rules. As it turns out the rules are not postured to protect the seller very well. Here is a very interesting link:
Deadbeat buyer options: (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=23565)
Fogdweller and I were on the same page and he went and found the answer.
As it turns out, the seller is unprotected against negative feedback if taking a deadbeat buyer to task which seems ludicrous but the way E-bay is set up in spite of some outcry to the contrary.
For that reason, I would not file an UID but instead make every effort to communicate with the seller and in fact call them and in good faith ask them if they were still interested in the item. This is the implied public relations spin the E-bay customer support pukes put on dealings to keep the peace in the PC world in which we live which takes down the well intentioned party and promotes dead beat bidding. If the buying party said they were no longer interested when asked...which is the intial part of the UID process anyway,
I wouldn't pressure them to buy with an UID and instead mention I will therefore contact the next highest bidder in the auction to see if they were interested. This is called a Second Chance...another E-bay site option. I believe this is the best policy to protect the seller's Feedback score who is getting the short end anyway until E-bay relents under pressure to revise their system to better protect sellers against negative feedback from dead beat buyers which appears to be on the rise based upon my research on the web. People will many times get away with what they can.
A final note, I took this technique to the test and sent a last e-mail this evening stating I would contact the next highest bidder if I didn't receive Paypal payment in 24 hours as I called the party earlier and they still seemed interested in the item. Wouldn't you know it, after waiting almost a week for the buyer to hit the Paypal button, after my last e-mail, they finally hit the button and now I am paid. The painful and lengthy red tape system/dance of filing an UID in combination with no protection against negative feedback from a deadbeat buyer is in my opinion E-bay's weakest point in contrast to an overall solid method of buying and selling.
George

[Kalevera]

Sweet. Good to hear that you got paid! Nice feeling, isn't it?

Well, I don't get into the technicalities that much because I don't (thankfully) have to. I'm sure that, because of the kinds of people who man the customer service center over there, rules sometimes get misinterpreted. Thankfully, I haven't had to work with a NPB since July. In that case, the guy got kicked off before my tolerance was lost, so filing the UID resulted in an instant credit of the FVF. (how about some more acronyms, BTW? :) ).

I don't follow the logic of the quoted (?) text. In dealing with a NPB who won't communicate, there is little else to do beyond filing the UID; I'm not sure if, when sending a second chance offer that is accepted, the original FVF is credited and the subsequent selling price FVF is assessed (once again, a technicality that I've never encountered).

But it's good to know all of this, if not just to form best practices from the start.

best, whit

[George M]

Hi Lowell,
I too have bought and sold on E-bay without knowing too much detail. You gain a bit as you go and of course when confronted with someone who is "playing you"...guess that's when I perk up and take a deeper dive to make sure I have at least a decent understanding of the system. Yeah it is a good thing when the buyer pays and also sad when a buyer doesn't...lol. If you like the UID system better, go for it. The Second chance method is much faster and won't set you up for negative feedback, that's all.
Quite certain for a second chance offer you are not assessed a second FVF because the item is not relisted...the beauty of it...cleaner...much faster and lets the deadbeat off the hook to not retaliate with Negative feedback (until E-bay changes their policy). And yes good to know all this and quite topical to what we like to do...swap parts...why I thought I would raise it up on the board...figured we all would learn something. The swamp is full and operational and good to know how to maneuvre through.
Will leave you with a whimsical tale...one I got a big laugh from which really puts a deadbeat in his place and that is not at all obvious.
Way to zap a deadbeat: (http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/273064/)
A few very keen card players on the web and a whole lot of bad ones...you don't want to get bit by a bad one if you can help it ;)
Cheers,
George